To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

sash I think you missed one out. The 18 year old who tries to do it themselves and dies in the process .

Thankfully Ryanair means that this probably doesn't happen in Ireland but if abortion was banned entirely it would.

Not many people do BOOP and Ireland is used as the poster child of the country that doesn't do forced adoptions by the anti-forced adoption crowd but truly it's a grim existence in care in many cases.

So in truth the anti-abortion/anti-adoption views of the establishment in Ireland are much more to do with the rights conferred by marriage (some would say the rights conferred by men upon men in marriage) and them trumping any consideration of the child.

So those who are pro-life are basically saying that women should be forced to go through invasive medical procedures and possibly major abdominal surgery in the form of a c-section, completely against their will, in order to save the life of a foetus?

Wowzers.

Ok, how's about this for an idea - all people, male and female, are screened for their kidney/bone marrow/any donatable thing and their details are kept on a database. If they are a match for someone, that person is then forced to undergo the medical procedure necessary in order to make the donation and ta dah, a life is saved, rejoice!

In this scenario, you could get people saying 'there are people walking on the streets who would not be here if forced donation didn't exist', just like that lady last night who was talking about people who would otherwise be dead if abortion wasn't illegal.

If we must save human life at all costs then surely forced donation is the Only way to go, given we have the technology and ability to do it?

Well I did give up a child to adoption. Unlike most people who think it's a great idea.
It's a shit idea. Not what women with real choices choose

Hear hear Nationalmust

As an adoptive parent, I can say that adoption is usually the least worst option rather than the option of choice.

Thats a brilliant analogy WillFerrell perhaps we can start a campaign for that...

Forced blood donation, bone marrow, organ donation (live and dead) though to be fair maybe we should only make 1 kidney compulsory for live donors given that we will be campaigning on a pro-life platform an' all.

Yes quite kew

After all, the pro life stance is that a foetus's right to life totally trumps to right of a person to have any sort of choice about what does or doesn't happen to their body.

So by that logic, and given the fact that with forced donation the recipient would not be a foetus but a sentient, self aware human being, so therefore has even more rights than a foetus, then forced donation should be law?

I'm kinda shocked it isn't already Will, what a shocking oversight I'm sure the Taoiseach will look into it and rectify it as soon as we bring it to their attention.

I don't think you've gone far enough with your forced donation bill. A person can live with half a liver, a single lung and one eye, so these organs should be added to the list. Sure, the donor probably won't have as good a quality of life as they had before, it might even scupper their earning power, but it's the recipient's life that is so much more important.

I'm always bemused by the 'if abortion had been legal I wouldn't be here' line of argument. For those of us born before the Abortion Act, this is so common as to be completely meaningless. I certainly wouldn't be here if my mum had had another option, but so what? Would I know any different? Would the world notice or care? Would the earth stop turning on its axis?

Willferrell you just need to add a clause in that only women are obliged to donate their body parts.

LOL. Well seeing as how this is the the turn the thread has taken, I hope no one will mind if I post a blog post I did on this exact subject. It's the one I was thinking of when I posted yesterday but I posted the other one by mistake, sorry. I'm a civilian not a ship's captain

Willferrell That is genius! I can't believe no one has thought of it before. Let's all sign up and start saving lives!
I've been seriously thinking about giving up alcohol recently as I'm a bit worried about what it's doing to my liver. But, with your fantastic initiative, I can carry on boozing and someone can donate me a bit of their liver if mine packs up

I have RTFT and some of the arguements are disgusting.

There is almost always a counter for arguing either way.

-Mrs. Jones wouldn't be here if abortion had been legal for her grandmother

-Mrs. Jones would be here if abortion had been legal and prevented the inevitable complications of childbirth that caused her death.

I am fairly ignorant when it comes to religion, but Catholics don't support contraception do they? So is their argument also, that you are not allowed to prevent an unwanted pregnancy?
Because if it is, why are sexually inactive women (well from the age of the beginning of menstruation) not forced to have sex every month to avoid a period. Surely the egg that is not fertilised has as much chance of being a 'potential' person?

And as soon as the child is born, they should be forced to do it again? No...

I would not say I am "pro choice" because I do not agree that someone who has let a pregnancy continue until say 30 weeks, then has a right to change their mind and abort a baby that theoretically could have independant life.

I believe abortion should be legal everywhere, with services to facilitate, up to a pre determined point (currently 24 weeks?) and the decision should be able to me made without stigmatisation.

For those that will argue that 'not having sex' is not the same because you are not actively making an effort to prevent a life, compare it to not feeding, cleaning or generally caring for a baby. In that case, the mother is not 'actively' doing anything to sustain the life, nor 'actively' doing anything to end it.

I don't agree to prohibiting the use of contraception, forcing sexual activity or not feeding a baby, but I want to highlight what I see as double standards expected by those who claim to be 'pro life'.

Women should ultimately be given the choice of what to do with their bodies.

Since there are many conflicting religions in this world, law should be based on morality only, and while a lot of morality comes from religious roots, as much does not. I also believe that there should be one form of law throughout the world, but I live in a lala-land Utopia in these instances.

I have no more views, and won't be reading anymore of this thread, so those who have an argument for me, save your time.

Yes but AndyWarholsOrange, I think you should be prosecuted for drinking alcohol when someone may need a bit of your liver at some point. You've got no right to create a hostile environment in your liver, so it stands to reason that you need to go to prison for 10 years to punish you for it.

I'm always bemused by the 'if abortion had been legal I wouldn't be here' line of argument. For those of us born before the Abortion Act, this is so common as to be completely meaningless. I certainly wouldn't be here if my mum had had another option, but so what? Would I know any different? Would the world notice or care? Would the earth stop turning on its axis?

Yes, and really you could take this further I suppose. I mean, I wouldn't be here now if my parents hadnt had sex at the exact moment that they did, would I?

Yes, it's a nonsense argument. If my first pregnancy hadn't ended in miscarriage, then my son would never have been conceived and born. It's a meaningless argument with no point.

Extremist here standing up to be counted. I read a report (think it was from BPAS) about women presenting for late abortions and being turned down because they were over the time limit in the UK. There were only about 30 women on the list. None of them were demanding an abortion because they'd suddenly had the chance of a last minute skiing holiday. Instead, there was an absolute litany of human misery - women in abusive relationships where their partner's abuse was escalating to life threatening levels during pregnancy, young women whose pregnancies were the result of rape by family members, just horrible.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. And if you make your society sufficiently civilized (as Dutchie's post makes clear) you should be able to reduce the late abortions to next to zero.

Forced birthers - if you're serious about your beliefs, get out there and campaign for women's rights, better childcare, adequate contraception, better sex education in schools - that's what brings abortion rates down. Making it illegal simply increases maternal mortality and morbidity.

Extremists who go out and kill people in the streets in the name of their religion probably stand up proudly to be counted too. That doesn't mean that they are right or that the majority of people agree with them - thankfully!

" if being pro-choice makes people extremists"

Well, only if you're one of those who believes that a woman should be able to terminate a full term pregnancy for any reason but apparently that's what you have to believe if you're really pro-choice. Otherwise you're just a forced-birth-supporting misogynist.

Whoosh (sound of political satire driven by anger at the undermining of women's rights whizzing over Bumbley's head).

The "extremist" comment that so many of us picked up on was a reference to a poster upthread who said that supporting women's right to choose, however far along in their pregnancy they were, was extremist.

In identifying as extremist, I'm saying (just to spell out the satire for the hard of thinking) that actually, this isn't an extreme position - that in fact late "social" abortions are almost vanishingly rare, and where women do ask for them, there's usually a story of abuse and social deprivation behind them so horrific as to make any sane person's response one of compassion, not moral judgement.

I hope that one day abortions won't be necessary. Wouldn't that be the best thing to hope for?

I think of myself as pro choice but I cannot reconcile with the idea of full term abortion for any reason, so I accept I'm probably not completely 'pro choice'.

However, there is such a huge gap between 'all abortion from the moment of conception, even for medical reasons, is wrong' and 'women should be able to abort up until the moment the umbilical cord is cut', that's is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. The number of women who would have a termination at anything above 20 weeks, because its just inconvenient, is so small that its not really worth debating is it?

I think the UK have their abortion laws spot on really and Ireland could do with takin a leaf out of our book on this one.

Yes, I said it upthread Lurcio .

I'm pretty sure that thinking a full term baby that can survive outside its mother should be terminated on the woman's decision is actually a pretty extreme position to have and, thankfully, very few share it.

You can have compassion for a woman who is in a situation of abuse or social deprivation without thinking that the 'solution' is to offer termination up to term. Supporting an idea in theory because you think it would never happen or because it is 'vanishingly rare' makes little logical sense and kind of weakens your argument.

I don't have to reconcile the idea of someone having an abortion at full term because she's suddenly changed her mind, because the chances of it happening are so incredibly small as to be almost non-egistant. But bumbley does love to derail a debate with her talk of heartless women killing their full term babies.

granny, yes, I think that's a good thing to hope for.

Will, I think there are some big flaws in the laws in the UK actually. Firstly the fact that abortion after 24 weeks is only allowed if the foetus has a disability. This suggests that those with disabilities are of less value than healthy foetuses. Not a great message to be sending. I also wouldn't be surprised if the limit is reduced in the future. 24 weeks is quite high.