To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Well I did give up a child to adoption. Unlike most people who think it's a great idea.
It's a shit idea. Not what women with real choices choose. Plenty of adoptees woukdnt choose it either.
All these ardent 'prolifers' wearing their fetishisation of the foetus as a badge of honour whilst parading their inability to empathise with anything messy, complicated or real.
Part of me thinks, and especially in Ireland, couldn't they just focus on the living children suffering hardship, poverty and poor care systems. But then no they probably have so little to contribute to these groups maybe they are best clearly labelled and grouped together for ease of avoidance.

And slightly off tangent the wsnkers with signs outside abortion clinics - anyone see the American couple who started joining them with different signage? 'Honk if you're horney' was an oddly effective riposte to the bile demonstrated.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but am just jumping in to say that, if being pro-choice makes people extremists, then I'm an extremist and proud to stand with those others on here.

We're all Spartacus.

I watched a documentary this evening, which is probably the one that the OP saw.

I think abortion in many cases is the least worst option. It would be good if every pregnancy is a wanted pregnancy, but as that's not always the case then a civilised alternative should be available. It's no good saying that a child conceived as the result of rape is innocent and shouldn't be aborted, because there's no recognition of what it could mean to that child subsequently finding out that their father was a rapist. There have been occasional posts here from MNers who don't know who their father is, and their mother won't say, and they're left wondering why.

The pro-life people seem to regard the pro-choice people as regarding a embryo/foetus as a "thing", but they do the same. As long as there's a baby born, that's the end of the matter. Even if the foetus is destined to die at birth. One case was of a woman who was told at her 20-week scan that her baby had no chance of independent life, but couldn't get an abortion. So she would have to endure another 20 weeks of pregnancy, all the while knowing that she would be delivered of a baby who would die within minutes of birth. Some women would want to do that, some wouldn't. In Britain, the parents get that choice. Even in NI, they don't.

Also, I think I'm right in saying that if a baby is born to married parents in Ireland, adoption is not an option, even if that is what the parents would wish, because the Irish constitution protects the concept of "family" rather than what would be the best interests of the child.

Well said Dutch1e

Having a child is a lifetime commitment. No one should be forced to undertake that against their better judgement. No one should have the right to make the choice for someone else least of all a abusive-- celibate priesthood. I don't think anyone else even has the right to an opinion on this issue - it is between a woman and her doctor. No one else's business.

Ireland is backward and bigoted about abortion, not to mention hypocritical. And I do not understand why N.Ireland does not offer abortion. Does anyone know if the lack of NHS services in N.Ireland has ever been legally challenged?

Surely the solution would be stopping rape happening altogether.

Well, obviously, bumbley. But I take it you are not suggesting that, as a society, we have the choice between stopping rape altogether and allowing the termination of pregnancies resulting from rape and we have deliberately gone for the latter rather than the former?

How do you suggest we guarantee the end of rape in any form? And, until we achieve that, what do you suggest should happen to women who have been made pregnant by a rapist?

yanbu

but I doubt it will be soon unfortunately

while the catholic church have such a strong hold over peoples lives women will not have control over their own bodies

and a woman should always have a choice, what has led her to make that decision is totally irrelevant

Pro-life is a nonsense term, because it implies some degree of care or compassion when such people have none. It's all about control and punishment, rather than any degree of compassion for a collection of cells which may or may not turn into a baby that the pro-lifers will not give a tiny fuck about or contribute towards it's care in any way.

Abortion is not going to go away. There will always be a need for it so really the choice is whether we make it safe, or we make it unsafe, and whether we give women the right to have control over their own bodies, or we give that control to the courts, the fucking church or politicians or whoever else we might think has more right to decide whether a particular person is willing and able - for whatever reason - to carry on with a pregnancy.

Pro-life, my arse.

bunchoffives - Northern Ireland politics/culture is incredibly complex. From the little I know, the no-abortion rule isn't about resources, it's about numbers. Protestants would worry about Protestant uptake, which would reduce their numbers, while fearing that Catholics would continue to "breed like rabbits", thus tipping the voting balance. Hence, Protestants there also don't want abortion.

Totally agree Kit.

They're not pro life, they're pro forced birth.

"a collection of cells" the heart is beating at 5 1/2 weeks gestation. Most abortions are performed after this time.

No one has the right to judge anyone.

I had an abortion aged 19 in a drug addled, violent relationship.

That was 21 yrs ago. I always wonder what would have become of my child.

I went after that traumatic time to have 3 wonderful children and a good career.

I would have done none of those things with that violent, controlling, sadistic bastard in my life and I have no connection with him and was able to competely move on with my life.

I am not proud of my abortion but I am bloody glad it was an option for me.

To feel trapped with a pregnancy I did not want or choose would have felt more horrific than the actual abortion.

As women we do not always have a choice. We are flawed and contraception fails. Men can walk away, we can not walk away from our own bodies.

The woman has a beating heart too, a functioning brain, a conscience, a viable, independent body. The foetus has none of that.

Blustory, indeed and thankfully no one has the right to kill that woman. ( at least not in countries with no legal death penalty).

and thankfully here women do have the right to make a choice

forcing a woman to carry on with a pregnancy she feels she does not or can not go forward with is cruel and can cause extreme stress on her physical and mental health

one which as we have sadly know can lead to suicide

So you don't want to kill her but just put her through the misery and heartache of an unwanted pregnancy, childbirth and child raising ?

And that's worthy in what way exactly ?

bumbleymummy

Have a look at what happens in places where abortion is banned.

Oh no Mrs Smith you are having an ectopic pregnancy, we know there is zero chance of you having a baby from this pregnancy, we need to operate.

When can we operate? Not yet, not until the falopian tube bursts and your life is in imminent danger, we will do it then.

Mrs Jones - sorry you have cancer, the treatment is a drug called methotrexate, oh sorry you are pregnant, we can't give you that it might cause an abortion, so let me see, we can give you this treatment, it will make you ill, probably won't treat the cancer and your existing 3 children will be motherless but hey look on the bright side you will still be pregnant when you die.

Or how about Miss Brown, now come on you are 19, we know this is not a miscarriage, you didn't want to be pregnant did you? Well what did you do to end the pregnancy? What so you mean nothing, sorry you will need to prove to the police you did nothing, killing your baby is murder, you are going to spend the next 25 years in jail.

Miss Green, 10 years old and carrying your father's child, well of course he shouldn't have raped you, but you should not have got pregnant. I know this pregnancy and your age mean you will probably never have another child but...

Well said Sashh

And "sorry Mrs Halappanavar, we know the baby won't live, but we have to pretend that it will because your life just isn't worth very much".

And the fact that that stuff is actually happening to people right now, it actually makes me cry.
I just cant get my head around the fact that there are people out there who think this is a good thing.

I got very angry on the first page of this thread and swore at bumbleymummy because I recognised the poster name. I can see from the passionate, well thought out responses on this page that the same woollen ill thought out mysogynistic and condescending views about women as masquerading as pink and fluffy concern have been posted again.

I'm sorry for loosing my temper and abusing another poster but I remembered that she'd gone on at length despite several personal painful circumstances being brought to her attention by other posters

Just to clarify, I can't believe that there are people out there who would deny women a free.choice to make decisions.in regard to their own bodies and who would deny them the medical facilities to do so. It sickens me.

Of course bumbleymummy the best option is to avoid unwanted pregnancy in the first place. But that doesn't really cover the following situations:

• genuine contraceptive failure
• rape
• medical reasons (either mother or baby)
• When things just dont work out perfectly

And of course in relation to the Catholic church the official line is contraception is wrong Yeah in an overpopulated world lets all have 10 kids. Now I realise most Catholics disagree but it is just so utterly ridiculous on so many levels that I cannot comment on it further.

bumbleymummy just going back to your point about availability of contraception

Millions of women around the world have limited or no access to contraception because of...let's think shall we...oh yeah...the catholic church. The same church which denies them the right to choose a termination.

Then she can give the baby up for adoption if she cannot cope with bringing it up for whatever reason

Well ironically wizard that's a valid option in Great Britain but not in Ireland. Adoption is only legally allowed in Ireland for orphans or if the child is born outside of marriage. Your unwanted child would actually be condemned to a life in care, because the law deems that the rights of "marriage" are more important than the rights of a child.

There were 16 non-family domestic adoptions in 2011 in Ireland. Sixteen. This was described as a "successful year" by the adoption authority of Ireland!

There are over 5000 children in care in Ireland and probably many more who should be, but's whats the point unless their life is at risk? Children are left in inadequate homes because the alternative isn't any more palatable.

So stick to your argument about having the baby being better than aborting if you must but don't pretend its better for the child. It's better for your conscience/religious beliefs but whats better for a child doesn't really come into it, does it?

Kewcumber I didn't know that. And I'm shocked