Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To hope we look back on this in horror?

674 replies

Fanfeckintastic · 03/02/2015 23:31

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheep · 04/02/2015 20:54

I don't mention rape - because the reason a woman wants an abortion is a) none of my business and b) irrelevant

the fact that she needs one is enough for me to back 100%

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 20:55

ooops - some of first para got deleted there...

Surely the solution would be stopping rape happening altogether.

Yes, Blistory, I think that allowing a woman to terminate a full term pregnancy rather than give birth to a live baby that could survive outside of her is extremist.

AskBasil · 04/02/2015 20:56

bumbleymummy very few women would ever choose to give up their babies in a civilised societies. They would only ever do it for altruistic reasons, like giving an infertile friend or relative a child. Women have always "chosen" to give up their babies in societies which made a different choice impossible. That's why the adoption rate has plummeted in the last half-century - because when women are given a choice, they don't choose to give away their babies on the whole. It is ridiculous to pretend that forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy and birth she doesn't want to, can end in a free choice to give her baby to someone else.

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 20:57

AskBasil "Yes it does, it makes lots of sense. If men did have abortions, it would be a sacrament in one or other of their patriarchal religions. The very reason men don't have them, is why it's a basic human right that is constantly under attack. Because human rights don't include women's rights."

This suggests that you think the only reason that people object to abortion is because only women can have them. Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds?

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 20:58

"very few women would ever choose to give up their babies in a civilised societies"

So the more 'civilised' option here is abortion? Really?

ghostyslovesheep · 04/02/2015 20:59

yes

ThereIsACarInTheKitchen · 04/02/2015 21:01

This suggests that you think the only reason that people object to abortion is because only women can have them. Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds?

Of course it's ridiculous. That doesn't make it any less true.

AskBasil · 04/02/2015 21:02

"This suggests that you think the only reason that people object to abortion is because only women can have them. Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds?"

It only sounds ridiculous if you haven't clocked the fact that our culture is steeped in misogyny.

Dawndonnaagain · 04/02/2015 21:02

This suggests that you think the only reason that people object to abortion is because only women can have them. Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds?
But it is part of the reason, we live in patriachal societies, preventing women from having bodily autonomy can remove them from the workplace. It decreases their power.

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 21:03

I'm more inclined to believe that the more civilised option is preventing unwanted pregnancies, not condemning single mothers, not making rape victims feel ashamed and scared to come forward but hey, each to their own.

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 21:05

Sigh...

ThereIsACarInTheKitchen · 04/02/2015 21:06

I'm more inclined to believe that the more civilised option is preventing unwanted pregnancies

I was on the pill. I took it correctly, always at the same time and never missed one. I wasn't on antibiotics or other meds that might have stopped it working. I didn't have D&V. I still ended up pregnant.

Blistory · 04/02/2015 21:06

bumbleymummy

Do you think that an unborn foetus is more important than the woman ? Because there are competing rights and anyone who puts the rights of an unborn, unrecognised human before the woman, IS a misogynist.

It really is that simple.

ghostyslovesheep · 04/02/2015 21:06

oh I'm sorry I though you where comparing 2 things ...forced birth V abortion ...

no one would disagree that preventing unwanted pregnancy was preferable

and I don't think anyone who is pro choice would find condemning single mothers or attacking rape 'victims' a good thing either

I thought you where asking if abortion was more civilised that forcing women to give birth against their will - sorry about that

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 21:10

No Blistory, I believe it is just as important. They both have an equal right to life. Call me a misogynist all you like.

Blistory · 04/02/2015 21:15

You don't see it, do you, bumbleymummy ?

Forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy is not civilised. Forcing a woman to go through childbirth is not civilised. Forcing a woman to raise an unwanted child is not civilised.

Do you know how many women and babies are harmed during childbirth ? Do you know how many women are traumatised by the birth process ? How much worse do we make it when we force women into this process ?

The mark of a civilised society is not to treat women are merely incubators but as humans. With the same rights and protections as other humans.

The consequence of your belief is that women would be treated as second class. Is that really how you see them ?

And I don't find it amusing to mark off a bingo card - at least have the courage of your convictions and recognise that they do harm.

switswoo81 · 04/02/2015 21:35

im from ireland and 9 years ago i travelled with a friend to london for a termination. It was the most horrific experience of my life. Even to get the information to book the procedure was so difficult.
After the termination i walked around the area sitting in coffee shops for hours before it was time to go to the airport. The pain was horrendous and i fainted and vomitted i bled so heavily on the flight that i had to wrap my coat around myself. The shame was overwhelming, i felt everyone on the flight knew why i was there.
The next day i went into work telling nobody, i was 22 years old and had to put the 2000 euro it cost (inc hotels and costs) on a credit card.
When i went to my gp as instructed by the clinic i was treated with disdain.

I love ireland, but at that time i have never felt so ashamed to be from a country that shamed me. The irony is i am a practising catholic.

Wherediparkmybroom · 04/02/2015 21:41

Ok i don my flame proof jacket......
Abortion should be a right, a zygote cannot live without the host, it is therefore a parasitical being.
God gave us free will, he meant us to use it for good, a woman for whatever reason does not want to countinue to term should be treated with care and respect.
I have aborted, I was right at the time, I have children this was always right.
Stop with this outdated, disgusting argument. Sooner or later Ireland will catch up with the civilised world.

Wherediparkmybroom · 04/02/2015 21:45

Ps read a handmaids tale by margeret Atwood and enjoy utopia! X

blackcats73 · 04/02/2015 21:47

Jesus wank wank wank on both sides.

A six week old fetus is not a baby. A 26 week old is.

It's just as evil to force a woman 6 weeks pregnant to continue with a pregnancy as it is to allow a woman to kill a viable one.

And the anti catholic rhetoric on here is wank too .

The Catholic Church the worst cult ever ? Yeah. Right worse than Isis and the other mad medieval extremist wank?!?!

Abortion on demand for any reason ( even if the fetus is the undesired gender) up to 24 weeks and then after that only if the fetus had a condition incomparable with life.

No one will convince me otherwise and the abortion as late as necessary lot are just as bonkers as the zygote is precious lot.

See I've said it. I'm right so there!!!

I need a break from mumsnet, it's a parallel universe and getting me angry.

sweetkitty · 04/02/2015 21:55

Personally my feelings are abortions on demand up to 12 weeks, by demand I mean they should be straightforward to get, no questions asked.

12-22 weeks only after counselling.

I think forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want is wrong.

Dutch1e · 04/02/2015 22:07

The countries with the lowest abortion rates have three things in common:

  1. Liberal abortion laws. These tend to go hand in hand with easy access to contraception.
  2. A culture that doesn't allow any church anywhere near its policy-making (often resulting in a culture that is frank about sex -no furtive guilt - and sees contraception as the shared responsibility of both men and women)
  3. Strong financial and social support for mothers

For those of you who are deeply committed anti-abortionists, I can understand how difficult it can be to implement the first two points. But the last one is all in your hands. When you have each personally sponsored a woman (who would otherwise choose to abort) through her pregnancy, medical bills, maternity leave, domestic help, childcare for the new child and for the existing children as more than 60% of women who choose to abort are already mothers, job retraining, night-nurses, au pairs, school runs, etc etc etc.... then you can have an opinion on her choice.

Until you have personally shouldered those factors that statistically lead to a woman opting for an abortion, you're really not doing anything to lower the numbers.

vdbfamily · 04/02/2015 22:18

When this conversation is about men and unwanted pregnancies,it goes like this:- "when a man has sex,he has to accept that even if he is using contraception,the act may result in a pregnancy.He must take responsibilty for that and if he is not prepared to be a father,or to financially support the mother,he should not be having sex."
When it is about a pregnant woman,you do not hear cries of "you should not be having sex if you are not prepared to accept the consequences"
This is such double standards.The act of sex was designed to conceive children. I believe we have totally lost the plot in a society that has turned sex into a recreational activity with no strings attached and resulting pregnancies into 'bundles of cells' that can just be disposed of. I too have been on threads where women have argued that to be genuinely pro choice you have to accept that a woman can choose to abort her baby for any reason up until birth. That is barbaric and I too hope that one day we look back on our too readily available abortion law and are ashamed of ourselves.
blog.oxfordstudentsforlife.co.uk/2015/02/03/first-person-im-pro-life-for-the-same-reason-im-a-feminist/

Dawndonnaagain · 04/02/2015 22:18

God gave us free will

Whether you believe or not, the only way this discussion will ever be resolved in a favour of women is to remove religion of all description from the argument. It is possible to be moral and not be religious.
Personally I believe that women should always be allowed to make their own choices.

HyperThread · 04/02/2015 22:19

YANBU, it is shocking in this day and age.