To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Leedy I am pro choice, and had a miscarriage at 13 weeks, which I think is the technical border with stillbirth. I Haven't found the views expressed by Blistory or Basil for example to be insensitive.

bumbley in all my time on mumsnet I don't think I have ever come across a poster as completely and utterly incapable of putting together an articulate argument as you, and god knows that is saying something.

I'm off, over and out.

To compare abortion to murder, theft and rape in terms of 'dont do it if you dont like it' is so unspeakably vile.

How funny that pro lifers claim to be the high and mighty moral ones when they are so disgustingly offensive in making their point, whether they're harrassing vulnerable women outside clinics or being insensitive and vile online.

No it was my post deleted, and it was a pa to bumbleymummy. I swore and unimaginatively said where to go because I could see how the posting pattern on this thread would go.

ghosty, Yes, it's tragic that their baby has a disability, of course it is but I think that baby has the same right to life as one without a disability. Yes, you can argue that it is life limiting etc but even people with life limiting conditions are afforded the same rights as those without. I don't think it should be any different at the foetal stage. Unless you think that parents should consider euthanasia for children who are born/develop life limiting disabilities? I think that's probably an entirely different discussion.

" You directly attack women who have had abortions" No, I do not. Nor do I think I've ever used the term 'murder' in relation to abortion because it isn't accurate.

And Bumbly you still haven't given a coherent, straightforward answer to my question. So, once again: why is it you advocate the return of backstreet abortions?

Maybe it's just me but I see a huge difference between using the word disability and the reality of what fatal foetal abnormality is. Fatal foetal abnormality - the baby may die in utero and if not will die once they are born. Tad more than life-limiting imo.

Bumbley you obviously didn't watch it - the people in that video - their babies had not chance of life - none at all - they had half a brain of no kidneys - they would be born and die within minuets, born dead or die in birth - all these poor families wanted to do was end that pregnancy sooner

it's not about disability - it's about suffering - about choosing to end a pregnancy rather than give birth to a baby who's short life would be filled with pain

watch the video - actually watch it

try and understand the content

maybe you might actually learn something - and you might even manage to find an tiny speck of compassion

So Bumbly thinks it's okay for a baby to be born in huge amounts of pain and spend its whole, short life in huge amounts of pain?

That's nice then

Maybe it's just me but I see a huge difference between using the word disability and the reality of what fatal foetal abnormality is. Fatal foetal abnormality - the baby may die in utero and if not will die once they are born. Tad more than life-limiting imo.
This.

for example how about the bit where the ashes of their son where delivered by courier 2 weeks later in a jiffy bag - because they where not allowed to bring the body home?

or the bit about walking round a strange town filling time before your flight after you have given birth to a longed for child that had no chance of life

I can't believe even you wouldn;t find that wrong

Yep - Bumbly thinks it's better for a baby to be crushed to death in the womb by it's mother

Fine baby, (although I have done already on previous threads and I'm well aware of the response I got to it then as well).

I remember being on a thread like this the day I had to go and meet with a doctor to discuss the plan for how we would manage my daughter's inevitable death once she was born. Bumbley didn't have compassion then either.
Also, and I haven't shared this before on here, but when my daughter was stillborn it was clear that her heart had stopped a few days prior to my waters breaking which was what caused me to go to the hospital in the first place. When she was born, her body was not in good condition, I don't feel comfortable elaborating any more on that on here, you all are intelligent enough to figure out what I mean. I couldn't touch her face, her hands, her feet, I was afraid to hold her in case I damaged her even more. We had pictures taken, but I haven't been able to look at them, I don't want to remember my daughter as she looked that day. Had I been allowed to terminate, as I requested over and over again, her heart would have been stopped and she would have been delivered in much better condition. I would have been able to have a better experience with her, cuddlled her, kissed her button nose and overall have less horrific memories than I do.

bumbley you believe that a disabled and non-disabled foetus have equal rights... But both of those rights outweigh the right of an already living woman?

assassin I am so so sorry. For everything you had to go through. And that precious Katy's memory has been tarnished.

TheBabyFaced

moomin, I'm not comparing abortion to them, I'm comparing the legal argument.

Saskia, I don't. I answered that for someone else earlier.

may die in utero. If you consider that 'life' begins in utero then it's life limiting.

ghosty, I'll watch the rest later. I have heard and seen similar before though. My opinion is informed.

You, no I don't think it's "ok". Why would they be left in pain though? Do we tend to let children born with disabilities suffer in pain? Do you think we should allow parents to decide to euthanise them instead?

Oh BabyFaced

Thanks everyone, though please note that I didn't share that for sympathy or to shock or anything like that! I just want to show the reality of what it is like when you are not allowed to terminate for fatal foetal abnormality.
These are the bits that people don't see.

Actually, baby, I have offered you sympathy on several occasions but you threw it back at me. FWIW, in my opinion, your daughter's life started and ended inside you. She experienced something, she wasn't just a 'bundle of cells' that was worth nothing because she wasn't born. She lived - albeit for a very short time. If that makes my opinion sick and twisted and cruel then so be it.

No moomin, not outweigh - are equal to.

There are a number of posters who like to post on topics such as this deliberately contentious views and then enjoy evading them. One might suspect they were here for goady purposes rather than a straightforward exchange of views, but that would be close to troll-hunting which is not allowed. They aren't worth engaging with though, even when they ask you direct questions, because they don't care about the answers.

Far more pressing is the fact that there are people with real power out there who are using it to remove women's bodily autonomy, which is disgusting and disgraceful and we should be speaking out about it, loud and at length, until something is done

Baby my heart goes out to you

Bumbley we both know how and when you offered your sympathy in the past, I've moved on, how about you do the same?
I have never referred to my daughter as a bundle of cells, as I loved her and wanted her very much, to me she was, and always will be my baby. However, technically, she was just a bundle of cells, as you (well that's questionable) and I both are. And you're right, she did experience something, mainly the hiccups, she never bloody stopped bouncing about, but having said all that, I still would have terminated the pregnancy, knowing exactly what that entails. It wouldnt change how much I loved her or wanted her, it just would have allowed me to grieve for my daughter in a more normal manner. I had to plan her funeral while she was moving about in my belly, that's not normal.