To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Patriarchy dictates what goes into and comes out of a woman's body, regardless of whether she consents.

I have lots of Catholic family, and those who are practising and with whom this topic have come up have all said that while they can't agree with abortion, they recognise legal abortion as the lesser of two evils because they can see that the alternative (illegal abortions) is so much worse

Firstly the fact that abortion after 24 weeks is only allowed if the foetus has a disability. This suggests that those with disabilities are of less value than healthy foetuses. Not a great message to be sending.

This is what bumbley said, Enormouse

So, as I said earlier, had I got pregnant after forty, and opted for termination, I'd be disablist. Well, I wonder how I would have justified that one to disabled dh and my the three of my children that have (inherited) disabilities. Of course it's a decision that would have been mine and nobody elses, it would have been taken to enable those existing children but I there is no way on earth I should be put in a position whereby I needed to justify such a decision to friends or family. Fortunately, I didn't. I was probably too knackered to get up to any recreational activities anyway!

Petula my mum's family are Catholic too, they think the same as your relatives.

Just when I thought she couldn't get any worse. I thought what she said to me was scraping the barrel but that is fucking disgusting.

Sabrina, in some respects, yes, men do have it easy but I, personally, can also see the inequality in the way that the situation allows for a woman to choose whether or not a man becomes a father but the man does not have the same choice. Not even in the sense that he can't force a woman to become a mother but that he can't even decide not to become a father.

biro "It's like trying to reason with a racist..." That comment may be even less intelligent than your one about embryos in a petri dish being the same as ones in a uterus.

wiggle, if having an abortion is more important than their family and their education well I guess that's the decision they'll make then.

For the several people who have used the 'If you don't like abortion don't have one" soundbite. Should we apply the same logic elsewhere in the legal system?

If you don't like theft, don't steal.
If you don't like drugs, don't take them.
If you don't like murder, don't kill people.

It doesn't work does it? Because whether you like it or not somebody has to stand up and say what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' and it's not just about what you yourself would chose to do in a particular situation.

Will, yes, some of them do. You'll have to ask them about their own opinions.

Will and Enormouse I linked to one of the organisations upthread (and referred you to it Enormouse) but here you go again

I've said this on another thread and I'll say it again here, arguing with bumbleymummy is like trying to argue with jelly. Straw men! Not answering questions! Answering entirely different questions that nobody has asked! Evasion!

Enormouse - you think it sends the message that they're equal do you? If a child is born with a disability or develops one then they are treated the same in law as a child without a disability. If they're in utero - they can be treated differently. It's not nice to hear but it's true.

and by the way, there was a thread that discussed that in detail and plenty of pro-choice people have the same feelings as I do about that. So you can call them 'fucking disgusting' too if you like.

Not even in the sense that he can't force a woman to become a mother but that he can't even decide not to become a father.

You have as much control of your genetic contribution as you want while it is in your body once it leaves your body you lose you say.

Men can wear a condom or not have sex if they want to keep the sperm from letting loose on the world. That is the control they have over their body

WOmen have control over their body too

I do think you are bumbley. You have a complete lack of awareness of how your comments come across to someone like assassin or dawn. But then you don't seem to care about them.

Exactly leedy, I've seen her/him do this on other threads. All you get is ridiculous sweeping statements interspersed with some really nasty remarks to other posters.

" If they're in utero - they can be treated differently. It's not nice to hear but it's true."

Yes, because WHILE THEY ARE IN UTERO, the PERSON WITH THE UTERUS can decide if they and their family are in the position to deal with having a child with a serious disability who might have, eg, a poor quality of life or require a great deal of medical intervention or whatever. I don't think there's anything wrong or shameful in somebody being told bad news at a scan and going "sorry, we're not up for this", especially in a country like Ireland where I've seen parents of kids with special needs having to fight and struggle to get the assistance they and their child need. OBVIOUSLY an actual born person who has or develops a disability is an entirely different thing.

I'm well aware of how she feels about me, Enormouse we have battled many a time. She knows I'm an 'extremist* and dislikes me for it. I'm surprised she hasn't called me a bully yet, but we've a few pages to go.
Yet again I have reported her to Mumsnet Towers. We'll see.

Enormouse, I'm aware that it might be upsetting for people to read but that doesn't usually shut down debate or discussion. I'm not the one who made the laws the way they are and I'm certainly not the only one who has noticed that they make that difference.

Saskia, I'm not usually the one making nasty remarks and personal attacks. It's usually other people's posts that are deleted for that. There was one on the first page of this thread.

Oh Enormouse my heart goes out to you.

I would never have an abortion, I don't believe it's right for ME. And that is the appropriate word. ME. My choice.

But what another woman chooses to do with HER body is HER choice and fuck all to do with me. Yes abortion makes me feel uncomfortable and the thought of an abortion when there is a heartbeat is also uncomfortable.

But I've just had my 3rd miscarriage in row. Second one that required a procedure and it's not nice.

I can't imagine anyone rocking up and saying "actually I've changed my mind" - if a woman requires an abortion then that is up to her and I have no doubt she will have thought about it a lot. And did it because it was right. And that is her choice.

One of my biggest fears is that I will get pregnant for a 4th time (I have no dcs) and then I find there is a problem. The thought of having to make that decision to have a termination agonises me but I would do it because it would be the right thing to do. And I pray I never have to make that choice.

So abortion is not something I feel I could do. But I believe in the choice.

We are all on our own journeys and have no idea what makes another woman decide to have an abortion. But if that late request is from a woman from an abusive relationship who has just found the courage to escape, or the couple who have just found out that their much longed for baby will be seriously ill and perhaps not survive. Well I doubt very much that decision was made easily or lightly.

It's a decision I hope I never face

It truly is pointless people ; you make a point that demonstrates the fallacy of her logic - she will either pretend not to understand it or scrabble around for imaginary loopholes.

Pointless because she has absolutely no insight into her own inability to apply reason or her utter lack of compassion

Utterly utterly pointless

Bumbley - what fuckoffgroundhog said.

and that's exactly it, Leedy. I actually chose not to have tests throughout my pregnancies. At that time they wouldn't have shown the disabilities that my children do have anyway, but the point is, I had a choice and I exercised said choice. Living in England, were I still of childbearing age, I would still have that choice. Bumbley would like to remove my choices and I have no idea why. Let's face it, had I had another child with the disabilties that some of mine have, how would those existing children have fared. Would ds2 be at uni and getting firsts despite his scoliosis, his Asperger's Syndrome, his Tourettes? Would dd1 and dd2 be doing A levels despite between them Cerebral Palsy, Brittle Asthma, EDS, Psoriasis, Asperger's Syndrome and Narcolepsy. I very much doubt it, between organising school and home, putting in coping strategies and helping Dh to get washed and dressed each day. But hey ho, that makes me disablist, irresponsible and evil according to others.

Will, yes, some of them do. You'll have to ask them about their own opinions.

There you go again, spectacularly missing the point - which is, if you are interested, that you totally discarded biro's analogy on the apparently objective basis that an unimplanted embryo cannot possibly have the same potential for life as an implanted one. But it's not a ridiculous notion is it?

Interestingly that group you linked to has as their tag line on their home page 'Upholding the utmost respect for human life from fertilisation '

Will, why are you expecting me to answer for other people? Biro was asking what I would do in that situation, not what others would do. Present them with that ridiculous analogy if you want to know their response. I can only speak for myself.

What SabrinaMulhollandJjones & originally what FuckOffGroundhog said by 5 million. . . .

pregnancyhelp.org.uk/pregnant-and-homeless/
one example of post baby support.

Dawn

Mouse I've learnt from past experience that it best not to engage with Bumbley. It doesn't do you any good.

Saskia, I'm not usually the one making nasty remarks and personal attacks

You most certainly do. I've seen it again and again - in fact I don't think I've seen a single thread on abortion without you popping up and upsetting women - women like babyface and enormous.

Their bodies are theirs, bumbley. Not yours. You get to make decisions on your pregnancies only, nobody elses.

No she wasn't bumbley, she asked another poster, vbd (who had actually said that she had a problem with embryos being discarded, and who refused to answer the question incidentally) and then you came onto the thread later on and rudely declared that it was a crap analogy because an embryo in a Petri dish cannot possibly have the same potential as one alread implanted.

But hey, don't let what was actually said get in the way of more 'don't ask me' shoulder shrugging from you.