To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

leedy, but the point is that if you think a foetus becomes more than just a bundle of cells at 24 weeks then what difference does it make that the woman 'has her reasons' for wanting abortion at that stage. It's quite similar to the rape argument. A 24 week old foetus is the same regardless of what reasons the woman may have for wanting to terminate it.

biro, "An embryo in a Petri dish has the same potential to result in a person as one in the womb" Really? If you leave the embryos in the petri dish for 9 months it's going to result in a person? Give it up - the point you're trying to make doesn't exist so I'm not even looking for it. Your analogy doesn't work. Move on.

wiggles, it's up to you what you do. Yes. you can say it's your right and campaign for change. I could do the same if I moved to Saudi - campaign for the things that I think I should have the right to do. However, if those things were critically important to me and living there without them would directly impact on my quality of life then I would not choose to live there.

Sabrina, they can be unequal in different ways. Not all men 'get it easy' because they don't get to make the decision.

Watch this Bumbley maybe leave a nice note for all those families on how they should have moved to England before conceiving children with conditions incompatible with life

I dare you

They get it easy because they don't have to give birth, or make the decision in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, bumbley.

It's not happening to their body, you see.

Unless you believe in forced birth, or forced abortion. Oh, that's right, you do believe in one of those, don't you.

Sadly bumbley - that's what I'll be telling my 3 daughters. Never mind the family support you have here, never mind the fact that you'll only be able to go to afford University if you stay at home, never mind that you'll pay your taxes, have a British passport if you choose - you'll still not have autonomy over your own body. My mum is so saddened by the fact that things will not have changed in her lifetime, foolishly she thought I'd have choices, I can only hope my daughters will be treated better.

wiggles your mum sounds great. We have to keep faith that things will change. For all the girls that are growing up here.

It's like trying to reason with a racist...

bumbley of course I'm not dismissing madmum's experience. That doesn't answer my question though, does it?

If an embryo in a petri dish or in a freezer is not a problem for you, how about instead of abortion, women are allowed to remove their embryo/foetus and freeze it for the rest of their lives?

but the point is that if you think a foetus becomes more than just a bundle of cells at 24 weeks then what difference does it make that the woman 'has her reasons' for wanting abortion at that stage.
No, that isn't the point. You are arguing for no abortion, not no abortion after 24 weeks, ergo the 24 week point that YOU keep bringing up is not relevant.

I havent RTFT but I work in a private hospital not far from London and the amount of Irish woman who call us of a nighttime in tears asking if we perform abortions is astonishing. We don't do this as a procedure but they offer huge amounts of money to us, it's really heartbreaking.

Strangely enormouse we disagree about everything under the sun but not abortion. She's almost 65 and unfortunately has experience in her family of the consequences of lack of choice from unhappy marriages to women being treated like brood mares, to that seemingly fix all adoption solution.

When I was pregnant at 19, of course my boyfriend wanted me to keep the baby. Because, as lovely and as generally understanding and allied-with-feminism as he is, he didn't understand the impact it would have on me. He couldn't understand the mental and emotional distress continuing with an unwanted pregnancy could have had (and did have, as I struggled with antenatal depression). He couldn't understand the impact it would have on my studies, as I was just starting my second year of university, or my identity.

He did have it very easy (and is more than happy to admit that). I made sure he knew that whatever I decided would be my decision, whether to continue with the pregnancy or have an abortion. I am so glad I had the option of safe, legal abortion in this country, as otherwise, I might have panicked and rushed into a backstreet abortion that could've killed me. As it was, knowing I had that option there helped me to sit down, think, weigh up my options and make a decision that worked for me.

"So this really is critical: in Ireland, abortion laws are not stopping women having abortions. They are just making it more difficult, expensive, time-consuming and traumatic for them to do so."

this

"So this really is critical: in Ireland, abortion laws are not stopping women having abortions. They are just making it more difficult, expensive, time-consuming and traumatic for them to do so."

YES.

Actually, an even more correct version might be that our abortion laws are stopping poor women getting abortions, or making it almost unbearably difficult for them - women who can't afford to travel or pay for a private procedure, migrant women with visa issues, etc.

the rich get richer, the poor have children

Oh and this from the Irish times

"What do you want me to say about illegal abortion Kid? I don't agree with it either. Lots of things are illegal and they still happen - does that mean we should legalise them?"

Bumbly stop trying to wriggle out of answering the question: why are you advocating for the return of backstreet abortions?

Yes, we all know they are illegal, but they still happened, and if you had your way they would happen again, at great cost to women. Why do you want that? The illegality is neither here nor there when someone is so desperate they are willing to risk prosecution (along with disability or death).

Please stop flinging silly naive comments and strawman arguments around and answer what is a very simple question.

I started reading this thread last night and there was a comment that has stuck in my mind since then. I have to respond. No prizes for guessing which poster made the comment...
The comment implied that women who consider terminating/choose to terminate for fatal foetal abnormality are disablist. This statement offended me beyond words can describe. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And secondly, Madmum can I ask when your experience with access to termination for fatal foetal abnormality was? Currently, and for approximately the past 24 months this is certainly not the case. The change of the attorney general in May 2010 brought major changes with just how strictly the law has been adhered to.

And to respond to the original question being asked by OP, YANBU. There are many amazing men and women across both the North and South of Ireland campaigning tirelessly to see women here afforded the same access to this essential medical procedure as our sisters on the mainland. In fact there could well be change in the pipeline in the case of termination in the case of fatal foetal abnormality and for pregnancy as a result of sexual crime. I live every day hoping that no women ever has to endure the ordeal that I, and many others have had to all because we live in a country ruled by religion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Abortion should be free, safe and legal. As early as possible, as late as necessary.
If you don't 'agree' with abortion, don't have one.

Pro-life: I know what's best for you

Pro-choice: you know what's best for you

" I live every day hoping that no women ever has to endure the ordeal that I, and many others have had to all because we live in a country ruled by religion."

Me too, except as I said above, I don't think we even really are ruled by religion anymore. Minority of actually practicing Catholics (judging by eg mass attendance), no fear of the "belt of the crozier" for being gay or divorced or whatever, etc., and the fact that most of our schools are Catholic is a ridiculous anachronism rather than (as the bishops suggest) a "reflection of parental will". It's just generations of spineless politicians since the passing of 8th who don't want to be the ones who actually put their heads over the parapet and piss off the mouthy likes of Youth Defence and Caroline Simons and Cora Bleeding Sherlock.

Baby

Fuck someone actually said that??

assassin

biro, "An embryo in a Petri dish has the same potential to result in a person as one in the womb" Really? If you leave the embryos in the petri dish for 9 months it's going to result in a person? Give it up - the point you're trying to make doesn't exist so I'm not even looking for it. Your analogy doesn't work. Move on.

So bumbley if the assertion that an embryo in a Petri dish has the same potential for life as an already implanted embryo is as oh so ridiculous as you claim, then why do so many people who are pro life also have a problem with the disposal of unused embryos during the ivf process? It's a big issue for many people is it not?

I have yet to see you make one decent actual argument for denying women bodily autonomy. Skirting around the issue and using a snarky tone does not a good argument make.

Oh and I would also like to know exactly what sort of support, beyond, 'you don't have to have an abortion, there is another way', pregnant women recieve from pro-life groups?

will I asked that several times. I didn't get an answer.