To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Enormouse it is so wrong that you had to go to those lengths and through that kind of stress and worry, just awful and the last thing you needed

Vdb

Just answer the question- it's not hard...

A third pregnancy would not have been a blessing. I had only recently started recovering from pnd and my youngest has only just turned 1.

I am student and my financial situation is not stable enough to support 3 children. I couldn't destabilise the future of the 2 children I had in the hope that it might be ok if I kept the third. I don't see the pro life lobby turning up and offering to watch 3 children under 4 so I can keep going to lectures. Or supporting me if I suffered with pnd again. The concern of the pro lifers stops at the foetus they've saved

Above all, I strongly believe that every child should be wanted. How would I live with myself knowing that number 3 wasn't wanted in the same way his/her brothers were? When I am ready to have number 3 he/she will be as wanted and loved as my other dc and I will have the means to provide a stable future for all 3

"The whole argument about adoptions and how there are loads of kids waiting to be adopted does not really hold water because many childless couples want a new baby rather than a child who has often experienced childhood neglect and trauma. There are virtually no babies left to adopt other than those removed from mothers at birth who are considered unable to parent."

What an absolutely horrific argument for more women being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term

Until what point? Until it no longer requires me as life support. So practically speaking term.

Thank you petula and wiggles.

Luckily, there are organisations out there who do actually help desperate women and do what the government has failed to.

I'm trying to persuade mumsnet to get Mara Clarke of the abortion support network to do a web chat. Asn help women in need travel to England to access abortions. Here's a link to a thread in site stuff www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2301073-webchat-idea-what-do-other-mumsnetters-think. Mumsnet say they'll consider it if opinion is strong enough.

"The concern of the pro lifers stops at the foetus they've saved "

That's not true. You're making generalisations about an entire group of people. Shall I say that the concern of pro-choicers stops as soon as the woman gets her abortion?

Lady, what is your criteria for being 'conscious'. Do you consider reacting to pain/music/parent's voice etc relevant?

Absolutely Enormouse. The age old argument of where are all the pro-lifers/anti-abortionists once the foetus is "saved" and born? Where are the campaigns to ensure that every child is kept out of poverty and protected from harm?
The fact that anti-abortion campaigns tend to focus on attempting to stop pregnant women from having abortions and that the concern for the family stops once they've "won" is enough proof for me that they couldn't actually give a shit about "saving a life" and that their motives are harmful and poisonous towards women.

bumbley tell me, what help would I have gotten if I had kept the pregnancy?

The pro choicers are still supporting me. I am still receiving support from bpas and asn and the wonderful, empathetic posters here. For as long as I need it, I know I have support and I know my decision was the right one for me and my family.

A really good idea for a webchat enormouse, thanjs

What the fuck is the fixation with abortion to term? That is not what this thread is about. If you want to whine about women having full bodily autonomy, might I suggest you use the useful start a thread function?

This thread is about the barbarity that is Ireland's and NI's stance on abortion, which has and still causes untold suffering to sentient women. That causes those women to have to travel miles in order to access medical treatment. That puts women in the position of having to get loans/scrimp and save in order to access that medical treatment.

It's disgusting that some people are using this to soapbox about how horrible and untrustworthy women are, because tiny number of examples.

If you're anti-choice, fine, go for it, have fun, but don't push your beliefs onto other women, in whose lives you have no say. And stop it with the revolting pictures, you are pushing more people over to pro-women than converts to anti-choice.

Rabid, there are organisations that do that. You may very well see some of the same women campaigning for signatures as you do helping out in woman's shelters etc.

Enormouse, I'm sure you would have got the support from here if you'd kept the baby too. Did you not look into what support would have been available to you? Financially - Loan/grants/support fund from uni etc? Emotionally - pastoral care within university and there are some other pro-life charities that offer help and counselling too. You feel that you made the right decision for you. I really hope someone took the time to go through all the possible options with you so that you didn't feel that you had no alternative.

that sums up the position of most pro-lifers quite well (American, but still)

I note you still haven't in any way justified your opinion bumbley, you just keep repeating it.

Why do you think YOUR personal feelings about abortion are more important than the lives of the women who you so casually dismiss?

You are also completely ignoring the fact that so many anti-choice types do is that banning abortion does not stop abortion. You just make it harder, more traumatic and more dangerous. I know why you are ignoring it though, and that is because there is absolutely no way to defend a viewpoint such as yours when presented with the harsh reality of the situation. Unfortunately, try as you might, sticking your head in the sand and pretending life is all sunshine and rainbows rarely works out well.

Links Bumbley?

I'm also pro-choice until term. That's not extremist position IMO, it's a logical one, but I'm happy to be Spartacus too.

Same ol' same ol' misogyny & sophistry from a familiar voice, I note.

bumbley I spent weeks and weeks looking into my options and agonising over my decision. I spoke to the fpa and Marie stopes.
Once I had made it, I came up against the bureaucracy of the NI abortion laws. And felt like the decision I had agonised over had been taken from me. I simply couldn't afford the procedure or the travel.

I considered throwing myself downstairs or taking an od. I was that desperate. Luckily I came across asn who helped me with part of the cost of the procedure.

It wasn't just the right decision for me bumbley, it was the right one for my entire family. It was not just a decision born of convenience or ease to selfishly facilitate my own lifestyle.

Enormouse

It was never thought that over 200,000 women annually would be having abortions and that is why people protest."

The total number of abortions in 2013 was 185,331.

91% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation, 79% were at under 10 weeks compared to 77% in 2012 and 58% in 2003.

So, not over 200,000 at all.

You may very well see some of the same women campaigning for signatures as you do helping out in woman's shelters etc.
I fail to see the significance of this statement. Unless of course you are saying that all women who work for refuge and similar charities are pro choice, in which case you are privy to information that the rest of us aren't.

Oh, statistics above are from The Department of Health.

Hazle.... spot on!

Enormouse.... you don't have to justify your position to anyone, lovely, you really don't.

Enormouse I'm so sorry you had to go through that

Bumbly, you still haven't explained why you'd like to see the return of backstreet abortion.

I support to term because otherwise it gets pushed further and further down and the justification and hoops you must jump through get harder and harder.

Yes the thread was started about the shit situation in Ireland. Thread drift happened.

Bumbleymummy so sorry for not nick picking my words properly. Not that you'd care but I'm tired and emotional so not at my best writing stuff at the moment. What I meant is a woman can survive by herself. A fetus needs to be constantly attached to single living woman or it will die. It fufils many of the criteria of a parasite, if you think of it in a coldly biological sense. There is a fine balance achieved by the placenta in order to not have it rejected (in the same way donor organs are rejected as fireign tissue).