To hope we look back on this in horror?

[Fanfeckintastic]

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

Well said Petula

Abortion is not always an "awful last resort" though.
Most of the time its a positive action for the woman. She is taking control, making decisions that are right for her and her body. Most women report feeling huge relief.
I think a lot of pro choice people are pro choice as long as the woman makes it clear it was an awful last resort
They get less pro choice when women are honest and point out that it wasnt in fact a hard decision, that they didn't agonise over it or feel guilty about it.
It's almost as if a abortion is ok, as long as he woman is suitably distressed by it.
I am pro choice.
End of.

Yes, there was an interesting discussion here a little while back about whether people were truly as pro choice as they said, that arbortion only seemed to be okay if the women prostrated themselves in guilt.

I've referred to it as terrible (I think) because, for me, it would be a hard choice and a hard thing to go through. And this colours my view of it. But if it just brings a sense of relief? Then I don't care. I really don't.

Thanks for both sides for answering my doctor question, that has given me something to think on.

for most people who are anti-abortion it is simply because we believe that life begins as soon as the sperm and egg combine and that extinguishing that life is just that.It is extinguishing a life. Many people I know are anti abortion but every single one of them would be compassionate with anyone who had been through a termination. None of them are 'anti-women'. None of them would force a woman to do anything. What they do feel however is that the abortion limit should be lower as babies can survive currently from 21 weeks.They believe that women should be fully informed as to what their choices are and not steamrollered along the road to abortion,which is what some have experienced.
My mother found herself pregnant with number 4 and was desperately unhappy. She did lots of heavy manual jobs/decorating etc in the hope that she might miscarry and baby hung in there. He is now 40+ and the apple of her eye!! Many women fall pregnant when they don't want to be, but for most who choose to continue with the pregnancy, things turn out okay in the end. Another friend of mine fell pregnant a couple of years ago.She had 3 kids already,the youngest of whom was 17! She was devastated but had the baby and is now really enjoying her in a way she never imagined.
I also have a friend who was told at one of her scans that her baby had no brain.She was strongly encouraged to abort but continued her pregnancy and had a totally healthy baby. There are hundreds of stories like that on line if you Google.
No-one is saying there is a simple solution to this and I also find it sad that people cannot just accept that there are strong feelings about this on both sides and not accuse people they have never met of being 'anti-women' or 'mysogynistic'. The people I know are all loving caring people. They just happen to care about unborn babies too.

I know someone who believes that life begins at conception and would never wish to consider an abortion for herself.
But she is pro choice. She knows its none of her business what other women do with their bodies.

The original question on this AIBU is a very good one. I also hope that one day our future generations will look back on the fact that certain 1st World countries such as Ireland and the United States have such backward views on the treatment of 50% of their population.

I also want to say that I 100% agree with AskBasils post above at 17:03. And many other posters have made excellent comments, too.

On the one hand, my Grandmother was raped as a young girl, and if she had had an abortion, my lovely Mother, my brothers, myself and my children just wouldn’t exist. For previous posters who’ve called that a “meaningless point” in comparison to the injustice or lack of compassion of ‘forced births’, come on!!! I’m sorry but that’s not some abstract argument. I obviously can’t look at this part of the debate objectively, but I can see the amazing potential of several full, happy lives that could have been snuffed out by one medical procedure decades ago.

My grandmother was engaged to a man who was subsequently killed in WW2. She then met my grandad, they had my mum and the rest is history. If that man had not been killed, then I would not exist. If World War Two Had never happened, I would not exist. Several 'full and happy lives' would never have come Into being, and would probably be replaced wit several other happy lives.

Am I supposed to be thankful that Hitler was such a cunt that Britain went to war with Germany and my Grandma's fiancé was killed, or do I just accept that every single one of us is here purely by chance and that had my grandma married someone else I wouldn't know any different because I wouldn't exist? There are literally billions of potential lives in this world that have never come into bein for literally billions of reasons.

leedy: "Inconveniencing a woman's lifestyle" was used as part of an example of one of the extreme sides of the argument, NOT as a condemnation of women facing the usually agonising decision of whether to have an abortion.
How incendiary and upsetting such statements are was my whole longwinded point.

Unfortunately, someone is trying to undermine the Abortion Act in England, Wales and Scotland right now!

link here

We need to be really alert to this kind of thing. There are people who would like to sneak in legislation under the guise of having concerns about sex-selection abortion and are attempting to give fetuses rights that would trump those of the pregnant woman.

There is a difference between not liking abortion and being 'anti abortion'. I don't 'like' abortion, I don't think I could go through with one myself. I am categorically not 'anti abortion'. I think it should be an option for every woman, anywhere, who finds herself pregnant.

vdb family No-one is saying there is a simple solution to this and I also find it sad that people cannot just accept that there are strong feelings about this on both sides and not accuse people they have never met of being 'anti-women' or 'mysogynistic'. The people I know are all loving caring people. They just happen to care about unborn babies too.

It's fine to have strong feelings about abortion, but the people who 'campaign' outside clinics, intimidating and filming women, are not 'loving, caring people' by any stretch of the imagination. They are misogynistic bullies.

bumbley Firstly the fact that abortion after 24 weeks is only allowed if the foetus has a disability. This suggests that those with disabilities are of less value than healthy foetuses. Not a great message to be sending.

For those not familiar with bumbley's arguments, this is one that she regularly trots out. How despicable to suggest that women who abort fetuses with known disabilities don't 'value' them. It could be that the fetus has a condition that's incompatible with life, it could be that the family lacks the resources (emotional/financial/whatever) to deal with a disabled child. It could be any number of reasons that are none of her business, but which have nothing to do with the value they place on the fetus.

This is a great example of her barrel-scraping arguments.

I have four children with disabilities. I am now past child bearing age. However, had I become pregnant between the ages of 42 and 48 I would have terminated said pregnancy for the sake of my existing children.

It's the 'abortion is wrong because life begins at conception ' brigade- answer me this

Imaging you are in a room with a 5 year old child and a small freezer. In the small freezer there are 2 frozen embryos. The building in which the room is situated is on fire. You can save the child or the fridge. Which do you choose?

Do bear in mind that one answer makes you a hypocrite and the other a lunatic.

I'm still only on page 10, but can I just say that the terms pro-life and pro-forced-birth are not correct. These people are pro-backstreet-abortion, that is what they are advocating for even if they won't/can't see it. If abortion was made illegal, it wouldn't stop happening, it just wouldn't be done in a safe and sanitary manner, so we'd go back to the days of women, often mothers, dying or being permanently disabled and debilitated. I have no idea why any decent humane person would want that.

Vdbfamily you cannot use your anecdata like that. There are plenty of unhappy women with unhappy children. There are times whem medics make mistakes yes. There are times when they do not.

I respect that you are defining life at conception and so instead of some muddled wishy washy oh, some are okay and some are not you are clear headed enough to think it through and say no abortions at all.

My position is that the fetus is an unconscious passenger. I have to provide nutrients, grow it and endanger my health for it. I am the host if you will, but one with free will and agency. Therefore, I, and every other woman, should be the final arbiter for their passenger.

I guess where I am going is similar to the why aren't we forcing people to donate organs arguement earlier in the thread.

I do hope this becomes a distant memory but I sadly I don't see it happening soon. The SDLP are already grandstanding against the NIHRC ruling to allow abortion in some limited cases.

As some of you might know, I have travelled recently from NI to England for an abortion. It was an awful experience to go through the fear and worry and scrimp and save for the travel and procedure.

I'm so sorry that you had to go through that Enormouse

It is utterly ridiculous and barbaric that you were forced to do this.

The question about the fridge and the child is not a valid comparison.If there is a genuine choice between the life of the baby or the mother,that is genuine grounds for abortion. They are both lives but only one can live. Some mothers choose to risk death to give life to their unborn child.
My anecdotes were not to say that everyone will live happy ever after, but just to point out that sometimes a pregnancy can seem like the worst thing/worst timing/can't afford etc but many women continue nevertheless and find it to be an unexpected blessing.
No anti-abortionists genuinely think the law will be overturned. What they want is for the spirit of the original law to be followed and for the limits to stay in tune with advances in science so that viable babies are not given lethal injections.
The whole argument about adoptions and how there are loads of kids waiting to be adopted does not really hold water because many childless couples want a new baby rather than a child who has often experienced childhood neglect and trauma. There are virtually no babies left to adopt other than those removed from mothers at birth who are considered unable to parent.
It is argued that post 13 week abortions are only 10% of total but the numbers are so high that that is still about 20,000 babies.
In over 200,000 abortions last year in UK, 1,200 were later than 22 weeks.
97% of all abortions were done under ground C but 99.8 of them claimed 'danger to mental health' and there were only 73 cases that were done because of a physical risk to the mothers health.
When this law was established it was supposed to be there to ensure women at risk of death or risk of severe emotional trauma were helped. It was never thought that over 200,000 women annually would be having abortions and that is why people protest.

"You'd think from some quarters that if the legal limit was raised there'd be hordes of women suddenly deciding at 7 months gone that they didn't want to be pregnant any more and marching in demanding terminations."

It doesn't matter if there was only 1, 1 is too many.

Kidlorne "It's a potential child which has no thoughts or feelings of it's own." What stage of pregnancy are you talking about here?

Belgirl, thanks for sharing that information about your family. "How can a so-called pro-lifer justify terrorizing vulnerable girls and women with pictures of aborted babies, or even murdering abortion clinic staff? " Not every pro-lifer does this or agrees with this.

AskBasil, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I certainly don't see it that way.I don't think people's objection to abortion comes down to men wanting to control women. Perhaps you are projecting that interpretation on to it and that is what is making you so pro-abortion? Perhaps you feel that if you 'allowed' yourself to think that it may not be as simple as a woman just doing what she wants with her body you would be letting down woman kind or taking the men's side or something?

theREalAmanda "i can see that someone who is anti abortion can still feel compassion for the pregnant woman." Thank you for recognising that

Good post vdb

twofingers " It could be that the fetus has a condition that's incompatible with life, it could be that the family lacks the resources (emotional/financial/whatever) to deal with a disabled child."

and if that disability was discovered when the child was born, the child would have the same rights as one with no disabilities. Apparently only in-utero is it ok to treat them differently.

lady "My position is that the fetus is an unconscious passenger."

Until what point?

Another good post vdb

"sometimes a pregnancy can seem like the worst thing/worst timing/can't afford etc but many women continue nevertheless and find it to be an unexpected blessing"

That's quite a gamble to make on a woman's life though isn't it? Of course people will tend to make the best of a situation where they have no choice. It doesn't make removing that choice right

puffins thank you for your kind words.

Enormouse - I'm sorry, I went with a friend years ago on the same journey on the bloody ferry, it was heartbreaking. The SDLP - a party build on civil rights apart from womens.

"When this law was established it was supposed to be there to ensure women at risk of death or risk of severe emotional trauma were helped. It was never thought that over 200,000 women annually would be having abortions and that is why people protest."

What a ridiculous argument. Legalising abortions didn't lead to 200,000 women annually having abortions, it meant that those women didn't have to undergo dangerous, life threatening back street abortions instead. What the protesters are actually protesting about is women having the law on their side to make these choices about their own bodies and lives. I would say that having an illegal abortion in those circumstances would certainly cause "severe emotional trauma" and would more than likely put them at "risk of death". Therefore the "spirit of the original law" is most definitely being upheld.