to risk asking for thoughts on this?

[Givesyouhell]

I am very nervous asking this on here - I was mulling this over and really couldn't quite work out where I stood on it so thought I'd throw it out there...

If a woman gets pregnant (let's assume protection fails) and she doesn't want or feel ready for kids she can choose to have an abortion. The man is rightly expected to understand and support this. End of story.

If a woman gets pregnant accidently (assuming protection fails) the man would often be thought a bastard for saying he did not want the pregnancy to continue or for then denying the existence of the child if it were born. He would also be expected to provide for the child that he did not want/feel ready for.

I'm not asking this question from the 'woman's body is her own' position, more the long term life changes that a child brings.

This isn't a situation relevant to me, just something that came up in discussion. It seems pretty unfair to the man to me, in that he has no choices at all in something that will change his life and finances for decades and maybe his own view of himself if he steps away.

Please don't flame me for posting, I'm posting to get other people's views and to see if I need to revaluate mine!

Also, as Officer's previous story showed, a man can get his wife pregnant, decide he wants to leave her and then complain about having to support the child so long term relationships / being married are no guarantee of avoiding dickwads...

If an accidental and unwanted pregnancy occurs both parties have to deal with it. For the woman that means either having a baby or having an abortion. Neither of thise choices are easy or without consequence. The man has to accept her choice is final and that if she chooses to have the baby he has to support the child financiall,y as does the mother. The court diesnt make him cover the whole cost of bringing up the child on his own. Those are his consequences and they are not worse than hers!

I think the problem is that people are trying to see the entire situation as a whole. It's not the case. There are two separate things.

1. The pregnancy - always the mother's choice since it is her body. I cannot imagine much that is more horrific than the idea of forced abortion OR forced pregnancy. Both are abhorrent. The woman gets to decide if she stays pregnant or not. There is no question of fairness - it's happening to her so she gets to decide. If a man wants to produce a child then he needs to find a partner who wants to do that with him and plan it, not pin his hopes on a woman he has made pregnant by accident.

(I know in the case of a man with fertility problems this might be a particularly painful thing to go through, and I have huge sympathy for any man in that situation, but sorry - the idea that the woman should be forced to go through pregnancy and birth is still worse.)

1. If the pregnancy is continued, then it becomes a whole other issue. It's not the same issue. Of course trying to avoid/gain this scenario is going to fuel the decision making process either way at the first issue, but you can't treat them as though they are one big issue all lumped in together.

If the pregnancy is continued and a child is born, then there is a question of who will look after, support and bring up the child. It becomes less about the choice of adults and more about the needs of the child. One of them has to step up unless they choose to have the baby adopted. Of course it's easier for the man to leave before the baby is born; the woman is the one carrying it so she automatically goes straight into caring for it. Again as it is likely she is going to bear the burden of this and she only has his word that he will support her, I would urge any woman facing an unplanned pregnancy in an unstable or new relationship to make the decision about the pregnancy not based on any promises he might be making to her but how she feels herself, because she can't necessarily rely on him. That's shit for decent men but a lot of men aren't decent and the consequences for her are too high if he turns out not to be.

The risks are much higher for women. It is right that they hold the right to choose.

It seems pretty unfair to the man to me,

How do you propose making it fair?

This shouldn't be an issue that someone first thinks of as an adult, it ought to have been thought of, talked about, ethics, options and views explored as a teen male or female before becoming sexually active. The OP details the situation as it is, an it ought to be fully understood by both parties before entering into a sexual relationship.

The bottom line is that if someone wants to guarantee that they don't accidentally become a parent then abstinence is their option. This would have been understood for the generation before 'The Pill', that even with condoms, having sex means there's a possibility of pregnancy, but there are things you can do to reduce this chance. In a way, I feel we might have become a little too blase about contraception, and that there doesn't feel like there is any urgency to come up with further contraceptive options, now that we have 'the pill'. We need more options that men have control of, male pill for example.

Excellent post Bertie

Excellent post Bertie

No. Its not unfair on the man.

It's probably worth elaborating if you're going to comment at all

It is unfair. Completely unfair. But there's no solution. Women have and need to have rights over their own bodies.

That said, if I got pregnant with a fella who didn't want the baby I would let him walk away. I wouldn't like to be forced into parent hood - and I have more options to prevent that - so I wouldn't force it upon someone else.

I agree it can't be fair though.

In what way is it unfair on men?
Boo hoo, he doesnt get to force a woman to retain or abort a pregnancy.
Really? Is that unfair?
No.

I don't have any sympathy for the men. Maybe we read berties post differently, I saw it as stating a fact - it is unfair but who cares. There is bugger all to be done about it so get used to it. Life is unfair

You already know why people think it's unfair but it doesn't matter because you don't agree.

I don't want to be forced into parenthood. So I won't be doing it to another human being.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, it's just how I feel.

Are you talking t me elton ?
I agree with Bertie.
Im disappointed that so many ppl seem to feel the need to champion the cause of the "disadvantaged male" tbh.

Oh here we go. We can't have an opinion differing from yours without being labelled as some sort of handmaiden.

Ts is confusing now. Was tht directed at me Grays?

Ha ha in that case all. 3 of us agree Amanda :)

Phew

Yes, regarding the 'championing the disadvantaged male'. It's insulting.

If somebody believes that men, as a group, are unfairly disadvantaged by our laws determining that a woman has rights over her own body then I am at loggerheads with their view.

I dont consider to neccessarily be a handmaiden though. Im not sure what that means other than in the literary reference stated upthrad.

I understand that everyone is exercised over the 'fairness' or 'unfairness' of unplanned pregnancies, but life is not 'fair'. How many of us have had illnesses, accidents, misfortune in our lives? Everyone? The reality is a woman falls pregnant, she either bears the pregnancy or terminates it. Both choices have consequences. Whilst I have sympathy for the reluctant or keen father, the consequences are smaller for him. (Physically,emotionally, hormonally)
In a world where people take responsibility for their actions, a man and a woman would both realise that despite best intentions, a pregnancy results in responsibility for both parties. And that means paying (money and/or emotions) for a baby you did not choose to have/ terminate. Life can be very harsh, and whilst I wish it wasn't, the reality is that life is not fair

No-one here is suggesting that laws should change, laws that protect women and our rights.

No-one is saying women should be forced into doing anything against their wishes.

All people are doing is acknowledging is the fact that it is unfair, and that there is no solution and probably never will be.

I don't think it's fair that a man has to cope with what would have been his child being destroyed, despite him really wanting it. It's right that the woman has the choice to do so because it's her body, but it isn't entirely fair that something that is also part of him is extinguished. It's fair in the sense that it's her body her right, but it's not fair in the sense that that bundle of cells would have been his child. Something he made.

He has to live with that decision.

And on the flipside, woman decides to keep baby and decides she's going to be a parent. The only time a man gets a choice it would seem is right before he choses to ejaculate into that woman.

That's all I'll say on the matter. I don't like being made out to be some MRA activist who doesn't give a shit about women's rights. Because that couldn't be further from the truth. But I am allowed to acknowledge circumstances in which life isn't fair, and there is no solution.

Handmaiden is used as a slang term for women who pander to men and their wishes, generally used by tumblr feminists when someone is 'sticking up' for men.

k you nimble
Exactly what I've been trying to say