to risk asking for thoughts on this?

[Givesyouhell]

I am very nervous asking this on here - I was mulling this over and really couldn't quite work out where I stood on it so thought I'd throw it out there...

If a woman gets pregnant (let's assume protection fails) and she doesn't want or feel ready for kids she can choose to have an abortion. The man is rightly expected to understand and support this. End of story.

If a woman gets pregnant accidently (assuming protection fails) the man would often be thought a bastard for saying he did not want the pregnancy to continue or for then denying the existence of the child if it were born. He would also be expected to provide for the child that he did not want/feel ready for.

I'm not asking this question from the 'woman's body is her own' position, more the long term life changes that a child brings.

This isn't a situation relevant to me, just something that came up in discussion. It seems pretty unfair to the man to me, in that he has no choices at all in something that will change his life and finances for decades and maybe his own view of himself if he steps away.

Please don't flame me for posting, I'm posting to get other people's views and to see if I need to revaluate mine!

You think it's unfair that a man doesn't get to decide if a woman continues with her pregnancy?

As if they're not entitled to feelings about the pregnancy at all.

Of course they are entitled to feelings.

What they are not entitled to is control over someone else's body. Their opportunity for control occurred when they made the decision to have sex.

Of course men are "entitled" to feelings! They are not "entitled" to decisions over someone else's body.

I feel for your friend's son bumbleymummy as any human would. But the reality is he had no rights over that pregnancy. None at all.

Everyone is entitled to their feelings. The are valid
What they are not entitled to do (at least her and now) is to force someone else to undergo or forego a termination of pregnancy in order to mitigate their own discomfort.

Oh, multiple x post.

Of course men are "entitled" to their feelings. What they are not entitled to is control over someone else's bodily integrity.

You know what?

It IS unfair. But we can't change fundamental biology. I would be happy for men to have equal say over continuing a pregnancy or not the day when:

• They menstruate every month (How is it FAIR that women have to suffer this every month but men get off scot free? We only have to do it so men can end up with children anyway. I call bullshit.)
• They can be the ones to carry a pregnancy, with the full, life changes, responsibilities, pains, stresses and every thing that carrying a child to term entails.
• They give birth.
• They are the "de facto" child carers in the household/relationship.

But for the moment, whilst their input into creation remains a shag, then nine months doing absolutely fuck all different, with absolutely no changes to their lives whatsoever, then merrily trotting off back to work safe in the knowledge that statistically, having children doesn't harm their career, then NO. They don't get to wade in and dictate what a woman does or does not have to go through with her own body and her own life.

Men have the choice beforehand. They can choose who they go to bed with, and they can use reliable contraception. Once they have gone to bed with someone they can't have a deciding opinion. They just CAN'T.

re equality: well, it's not exactly equal is it? If the woman doesn't want the man involved in the child's upbringing he has to actually fight for his rights. You can argue that this is the way it should/have to be but it isn't equal.

I for one am not professionally offended. I'm not offended at all. I just think that being sarcastic and sneering at a serious issue is patronising.

It is possible to accept there is no other way but to also accept that, for a man, either continuing with a pregnancy when he doesn't feel ready to be a father (usual scenario) or, rarer I imagine, a woman terminating a pregnancy against his wishes, is distressing.

There may be no other way but it doesn't mean we can't be relatively sympathetic rather than bite out 'put something on the end of it' as per Jeremy.

I'm with OP. It's unfair, although I also think woman having final say is still the fairest outcome possible. Kinda shit having a minority opinion on MN, no many people will raise their head above parapet so you won't get a good canvas here on what most people really think.

OP When I was a foolish young man I thought like that.

I am still a man, no longer young, and I hope a bit less foolish, and I have thought better of it.

I don't understand why it is ultimately the woman's decision to abort or keep and the man just has to live with it.

They both have sex knowing the risks and if contraception fails why does one opinion trump the other. The woman could say no to sex if she doesn't want to carry a baby to term just as easily as the man who doesn't want to be a father. She knows the risk of pregnancy exists, she knows the risks and difficulties pregnancy brings with it.

Best answer is for this discussion to be had before they engage in sex so that both know the outcome and agree an action before sex. But of course faced with the reality one may change their mind. Both should have equal rights over the child. Can a woman walk away after birth if she really does not want the child and hand it over to the father?

There really is no fair answer - maybe everyone should just abstain in case.

If you dont understand why the woman "chooses" then I suggest you take legal action against the education authority responsible for your schooling.
It demonstrates an alarming lack of awareness of basic biological/legal/medical issues that a fundamental for social functioning.

The woman gets the final say because she is the one which will have to go through the process of either termination or of pregnancy and birth. That really shouldn't be underestimated. Even a safe, medical termination and a routine, low risk pregnancy and birth can be painful, emotional, pregnancy and birth can have lifelong after effects. It's not just about the child - it's not like it's going to appear out of thin air.

In reality the man can walk away scot free. Whether people "judge" him or not, it's relatively easy for him to do that.

"I don't understand". You could have just left it at that butterpuff.

I agree that when you put it like that, it is quite unfair.

Because it is the woman's final choice to go through with or terminate a pregnancy, then the man can easily find himself in the position of having to just accept a decision he is very unhappy with.

However, as others have said, it is just down to biology. The woman is the one who has to go through pregnancy, birth and feeding the baby, so it is only right that she has the ultimate and final decision.

So yes, maybe it's unfair. But the biology of having children creates other unfairnesses: for example, the fact women are pregnant, give birth and breastfeed means that in the majority of families, it is the woman who could see her career/income suffer.

So it's not the only unfairness out there.

'And telling our children only to have sex with people you want to spend the rest of your life with? Good luck with that one! Worked incredibly well over the years, hasn't it?'

I was told the above by my parents and it seemed like a good plan. I had sex for the first time on the evening of my wedding and am still happily married to that man. I will be suggesting the very same to my 3 kids.Whether they choose to listen to me is obviously their choice but I hope they will see it as a valid and sensible option.

I think it is very imbalanced that women can happily state that at the point of having sex,a man makes a choice about whether to be a parent because contraception may fail , yet if you try and transfer that argument to women you are accused of oppressing women etc.
If 2 people have consensual sex, they should BOTH accept that the consequence could be a baby. At the moment,men HAVE to accept that and women can decide to terminate their pregnancy. If women have a say in whether they wish to become a parent at that stage of their life,why should men not have the same right to opt in or out?

"Why should men not have the same right to opt in or out?"

Because biology.

you are right, fundamentally it is unfair that women can terminate without any regard for the father's opinion and can also decide to continue with pregnancy and demand financial support from a man without any regard to their opinion on the matter. however, the law is on the women's side as it is their bodies that will sustain the foetus up until birth etc.

I have a very strong belief that you should not have sex unless you are willing to become a parent as the only sure fire way to not get pregnant is not to have sex.

you cannot fix this "injustice" in the equality battle because you cannot force a woman to terminate and you equally cannot force her to continue with a pregnancy. all you can do is admit the inequality exists and that ot exists for a very good reason

Well see, i consider myself to be blessed by the fact that i have been able to carry both of my daughters (both unplanned pregnancies not that its relevant) inside my body. I don't consider that to be a disadvantage - i loved being pregnant. I know its not the same for everyone, but why talk about being a woman as if is a disadvantage?

Yes the woman does not have the option of just walking away and sticking her head in the sand, but she also has the final say. I am not sure fair comes into it.

I do consider it a bit hypocritical though as it is seen as a woman's "right" to terminate a pregnancy. The man has no say (but like you say, thats just biology). This discussion seems to be missing something..........oh yes, the unborn child.

I suppose it would be possible to argue how unfair it it is that if a couple do want a baby, women have to be pregnant for 9 months and give birth and all men have to do is ejaculate. But it would be a daft thing to argue.

Because biology.

then the man can easily find himself in the position of having to just accept a decision he is very unhappy with.

Except, he doesn't. Nobody makes him support a child that he has fathered, it just doesn't happen. CSA is a joke. If he wanted the pregnancy but she didn't, that is terrible, and I really feel for any man in that situation, but he has to accept that 1, it was never his choice to make, and 2, it would be far worse to force her to go through pregnancy and birth than for him to lose a potential child which was unplanned anyway. It's not a nice situation to be in, but it's not nice for the woman either. It's not as simple as her skipping off into the sunset and having a nice life. She also has to deal with the emotional and physical aftermath of an abortion.

The thing I find very unfair is the way that men have the freedom, essentially, to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy that they don't want. They choose not to pay. They go incognito or whatever to avoid it. Then years later they change their minds. And everyone fucking applauds them for strolling back into their child's life without so much as a thank you or acknowledgement of the fact that everyone has done his job of supporting and/or raising the child for however many years

I would like men, if they choose to walk away from a pregnancy, to sign some kind of un-adoption, relinquishing them from responsibility, but also relinquishing any rights they have to contact, until the child is 18 and can decide for themselves. That would seem like the fairest thing to me.

It's not fair to men that they have no meaningful choice about an accidental pregnancy.

However it would be far more unfair to the woman to not be given complete autonomy over her own body.