to risk asking for thoughts on this?

[Givesyouhell]

I am very nervous asking this on here - I was mulling this over and really couldn't quite work out where I stood on it so thought I'd throw it out there...

If a woman gets pregnant (let's assume protection fails) and she doesn't want or feel ready for kids she can choose to have an abortion. The man is rightly expected to understand and support this. End of story.

If a woman gets pregnant accidently (assuming protection fails) the man would often be thought a bastard for saying he did not want the pregnancy to continue or for then denying the existence of the child if it were born. He would also be expected to provide for the child that he did not want/feel ready for.

I'm not asking this question from the 'woman's body is her own' position, more the long term life changes that a child brings.

This isn't a situation relevant to me, just something that came up in discussion. It seems pretty unfair to the man to me, in that he has no choices at all in something that will change his life and finances for decades and maybe his own view of himself if he steps away.

Please don't flame me for posting, I'm posting to get other people's views and to see if I need to revaluate mine!

Sex carries the risk of pregnancy for both sexes. I'd feel sorry for a man who wanted to have a child but a woman opted for an abortion. Because he'd have no say in the matter. But that's just how it is.

I, too, don't think that abortion should be reliant on the consent of both partners............but if the woman wants to proceed with the pregnancy and the man doesn't.........then the woman should take full financial responsibility for the child.

And this is why I will be telling my son to wear a condom at all times. It doesn't matter if the woman says she is on the pill etc.

In my youth, I swear I probably lied a few times and took a few risks and i am what you'd call a nice girl!

A condom is certainly no guarantee of no pregnancy. In fact isn't it quite an unreliable method of contraception. People should start realising having sex could mean there is a chance of becoming pregnant. We should be getting away from this I woke up one morning and found myself pregnant. How on earth did that happen.

Well I'd say make the reluctant father opt out completely, but that ignores the issue that the child is a person who might want to know where the other half of their genetic make up comes from one day.

I would not want to see reluctant fathers forced to care for their children. That's not fair on the child.

You can't talk about this in terms of fairness in the same way as other things, because most of the things we would consider fair in other situations don't work when there is a real live person involved.

vivienne The only 100% method is to not have sex!!!

Other than that, the condom is one of the most reliable methods, if used correctly.

Let's be honest, if you were actually trying for a baby, I'm fairly sure wearing a condom each time would foil your chances of success!!!

Butter - if men have birth and carried a baby for 9 months, they would have the final say.

And yes, if a woman doesn't want to pregnant, she has equal responsibility with her partner to use protection. It doesn't always happen though and other times contraception fails.

Its probably one of the few situations that truly favours the woman.

Of course it's not fair but it is what it is.

tis one of the reasons why I've never been a fan of casual sex not that most of my ex partners were ideal father material

Have been pregnant as a result of contraception failure and its a dark place.

But surely creating some system or law whereby men are able to simply sign a form to abdicate any responsibility for a child is just going to make life easier for them?

It would just mean they feel safer having unprotected sex because, you know, if anything does happen they can just ignore it.

If you stop and think about that suggestion it's so utterly unworkable

But then again Thurlow it is the WOMAN who gets pregnant - she should make SURE she can't, surely?

Oh, sure, she can make 100% sure says the woman who has fallen pregnant using both the pill and condoms

Maybe, but you are the exception.......not the rule

When I went to have a coil fitted I was asked about contraception between appointments. I said I'd use condoms. I was told they aren't effective contraceptives and I'd need to use something else instead.
I found that very weird! I opted for the withering look whenever Dh came near me approach. very effective contraceptive.

Stealth

Telling men they can just walk away from an unplanned pregnancy with no ties is just going back to the days before the CSA and all that - while I appreciate they might not do the best job, there is at least a legal expectation that men should support their children. It just puts everything back on the woman again.

Until we advance to a point where there is zero risk to a woman either medically, financially or socially from being pregnant and having a child, or where men are not only able to gestate a foetus, but suffer the same inequalities women do when they are doing this, the point is academic.

Once a pregnancy has been confirmed, women should hold all the cards. Because they take all the risks. Don't like it? Change biology, society and equality, should be easy for you.

I wonder what the ratios are between men, evilly fooled by women into ejaculating into them and thereby causing conception, who then have to pay for children they don't give a shit about; compared with men who knowingly take part in sex specifically aimed at causing conception, or who were completely aware of the lack of contraception being used who, once they decide they don't like the child's mother anymore, walk away scot free and without a backward glance?

And yes, emotive language. My bad.

Can I throw another slant on it. I only skimmed the thread so apologies if already covered.

My DP and I don't want kids (why MN? It's a fab community!). A few months ago I was two weeks late (copper coil), and we strongly suspected I was PG. Eventually I either came on or MC, whichever of the two it was. It prompted a little rather big discussion as we have a clash of thoughts when it comes to reaching the outcome of no kids:

1. DP is a Christian who disagrees with abortion for that reason (unless rape, for which he will make an exception).
2. Feels it's my choice as it's my body (legally this is correct)
3. Would support me either way, even if I did abort, as it's my decision rather than his, so a bit like a 'get out of jail free' card for him.
4. Had I been pregnant and decided on abortion, I would not be allowed to drink until the deed had been done so to speak, as it is still his child and I should respect it.

Point 4 had me a bit because if I had already made the decision, does it really matter? (I was so stressed that I just wanted a bottle of wine in the event of a BFP to drown sorrow.) Also, if he is so against having a child, why does he feel the need to protect this embryo? Or have a bloody say in the matter wheb on the abortion front he passes all responsibility to me?

I can see both sides now (now that I can detach myself from it all), am just trying to put in to words all the things that went through our heads at the time.

So back to the OP's Q, I would agree with most posters on here that, if a man can't deal with it, they should keep it covered. No contraception is entirely fail safe so the risk is always there. PG is a physical risk to the woman, abortion a mental risk. Whatever the woman chooses to do, it will always affect her. He only has to deal with it if the child is kept. Yes, that is for life. But that was a risk both parties took when they had sex.

It is a difficult topic, it always will be. However, as a woman does all the hard work (PG/Abortion/more likely to be main carer), the man should technically speaking just deal with their predicament. The woman has to either way.

Actually, both PG and abortion are both a medical and psychological risk.

(Sorry I used term 'mental' in earlier post. No intention to offend, brain is just not working at full speed after a week of spreadsheet and number staring at work .)

It's really very simple.

When a woman is pregnant no one has the right to tell her what to do with her own body.

Once the child is born it stops being about the mum or dad because now that child has its own rights, and one of those rights is to be supported financially by its parents.

"Hands up if your long term health has been permanently affected as a direct consequence of pregnancy and/or childbirth."

Not long term, but my last pregnancy could have killed me (YAY PRE-ECLAMPSIA). Just among people I know in person, I know women who've had HELLP syndrome (also could have died), horrendous pelvic floor damage that needed corrective surgeries until they could even shit unassisted, long term thyroid problems, long term back/pelvic problems, and fun things during pregnancy like ending up in a wheelchair from SPD.

I am genuinely boggling at all the people bemoaning the fact that "it isn't fair, why don't men have a say". BIOLOGY ISN'T FAIR.

"Once the child is born it stops being about the mum or dad because now that child has its own rights, and one of those rights is to be supported financially by its parents."

This, exactly.

I wish people would stop talking about the hard work and health risks of prgnancy. It's not about that. Even if pregnancy and birth as as easy as falling off log and had no potential health risks at all, it would be up to the woman whether she did it or not. Because it is her body. That's the beginning and end of it.

"Even if pregnancy and birth as as easy as falling off log and had no potential health risks at all, it would be up to the woman whether she did it or not. Because it is her body. That's the beginning and end of it."

Oh yeah, totally agree. Just having had pregnancy complications myself has made me even more viscerally pro-choice. There's no fucking way women should have to risk that if they don't really really want to be pregnant.

Sometimes I think it would be better for everyone just to have sex when married or in a stable relationship. Then there should be less chance of these unwanted pregnancies. Up thread somebody said her mother had said don't have sex with anyone you don't want to spend the rest of your life with. Perhaps she had a point. But in an ideal world it would be better in a lot of ways if people just had sex within a stable long lasting relationship.

I get what you're saying, and in an ideal world, two consenting adults would know and agree with how they would deal with a contraceptive failure should that ever occur, so they can plan accordingly (for instance using condone as well as the pill/coil).

The thing is though is the burden will always fall on the mother regardless of what happens, which is why a man should 'suck it up' regardless of then outcome. Sex has the primary purpose of reproduction, they're aware of that when dipping their stick so the least they can do is wrap it up if they don't went children.

Hopefully by the time my son is an age where he will be having sex, there'll be some form of long term male contraception so he can take equal responsibility in unwanted pregnancy prevention. Until then I'll be telling him never to trust a woman who says she's on the pill and to always always use a condom, and if he's too drunk to handle putting one on, not to bother even having sex because it'll probably be crap anyway

Oh yes, excellent points. Then I think I do fall back on the view that the man ought to be legally obliged to provide financial support to his child. (But I still don't think he should be forced to care for the child - children should be cared for by people who want them.)

Vivienne I don't agree with that at all. I think restricting sex to committed relationships leads to people rushing into or tricking others into relationships/marriage in order to get sex (not helpful) and totally ignores the fact that monogamy and, indeed, coupledom doesn't suit everybody.

No, we need reliable and easy access to contraception. I would double up now if I was single and really didn't want to be pregnant.