to risk asking for thoughts on this?

[Givesyouhell]

I am very nervous asking this on here - I was mulling this over and really couldn't quite work out where I stood on it so thought I'd throw it out there...

If a woman gets pregnant (let's assume protection fails) and she doesn't want or feel ready for kids she can choose to have an abortion. The man is rightly expected to understand and support this. End of story.

If a woman gets pregnant accidently (assuming protection fails) the man would often be thought a bastard for saying he did not want the pregnancy to continue or for then denying the existence of the child if it were born. He would also be expected to provide for the child that he did not want/feel ready for.

I'm not asking this question from the 'woman's body is her own' position, more the long term life changes that a child brings.

This isn't a situation relevant to me, just something that came up in discussion. It seems pretty unfair to the man to me, in that he has no choices at all in something that will change his life and finances for decades and maybe his own view of himself if he steps away.

Please don't flame me for posting, I'm posting to get other people's views and to see if I need to revaluate mine!

Yabu op. I think unfair is a childish notion with regards to sex, contraception and reproduction.

I agree with some the the posts up thread saying that sex is made out to be a casual affair these days, but it isn't as it is designed to create life and contraception is not fail safe. This is not about unfair but about education and awareness and acting responsibly. Boys and girls, women and men need to be clear about the possible consequences (emotional and biological) of having sex and deal with them responsibly. There is no one to blame op but themselves (man or woman).

Why do people always assume that its only when contraception fails that men bugger off and abandon their DCs?

My ex knowingly, soberly, over a period of time had unprotected sex on many occasions but still went awol before his dc was born.

Some men are just bastards who want to shag at leisure and don't give a flying fuck about the trail of destruction they leave in their wake.

Terminating a pregnancy has it's consequences too though, Mermaid. I can't imagine many woman have one, then walk away without giving it another thought.

Men have different rights and responsibilities because the consequences for them are different.

Also, the fact remains that, however unfair they may feel the situation is, they chose to put themselves at risk of being there by having intercourse. They could have said no.

I dont think people are assuming that at all.

that was to JackieHarris

There is a school of thought that says a man has the right to waive responsibility to a child before 12 weeks.

Tricky.

Life isn't fair. If a woman has an unplanned pregnancy her choices are to change het life and continue with the unplanned pregnancy or have an abortion, which is rarely a simple straightforward decision.

If a man is involves he either gets a baby he doesn't want or doesnt get a baby he does want.

Not fair on either of them is it? Yet people only ever seem to worry about the poor men. Wonder why the hell that is.

I know a few women who terminated and walked away; I'm one of them. It doesn't leave all of is a traumatised quivering emotional wreck and it's patronising to assume it does.

We dont need to talk about motherhood in that way. Its not the same thing.

As an aside, unwanted pregnancy is an emotive and subjective issue initself.
Some women coukd not consider termination for non medical reasons no matter how their pregnancy arose, and others will feel differently. Pregnancy/ birth /termination, they all have the potential for physical and psychological impacts that override the rights of a man to not have to pay a little bit of child support.
And yes, it must be deeply distressing to feel a bond with an unborn child and then witness a termination of that pregnancy. Men in that position need emotional support.

Yet people only ever seem to worry about the poor men

Do they? I don't think that's the case at all.

The asymmetry of biology means there's no getting away from men and women having different choices with regard to abortion. Men just have to accept that their say ends once they've parted with sperm. That aspect may be unfair to them, but pregnancy as a whole is "unfair" to women.

Where there could be a choice (not saying their should be) is whether men get parental rights or responsibilities for a child they have always said they didn't want. That is a political/societal choice.

For example, women finds she is pregnant, legal notice served on man, he has say one week to legally respond whether he wants to be the father, in which case he gets both rights and responsibilities, or neither. The default if he doesn't respond could be either in or out. (I'm not saying I'm in favour of men being able to opt out, merely pointing out that it is possible. In fact I think I'm inclined to go the other way and increase men's accountability for maintenance, compared to the status quo.)

"since it's very rare in our society for a woman to end up with a child she hadnt decided to deliver (as opposed to conceive)."
That's a bit black and white don't you think? Just because a women decides not to have an abortion, doesn't mean she is ready or prepared for motherhood. I think the term " decision" is misleading here. She might have had to choose between two undesirable option whilst being in a vulnerable state (pregnant, hormones etc.). I would guess that it is much harder making a decision between aborting or not than between shagging or not.

I think the idea that the poor menz have no choice in this matter is silly. They have a choice, I.e. Not to have intercourse. If his partner / shag buddy does get pregnant he also has a choice to deal with it responsibly. Life is not Disney world and these tough situations come up in all sorts of ways. It is not about "fairness" however.

It would be great if abortions needed both parents to agree

Good Christ no it wouldn't be "great". What a terrible notion. Please think this through some more...

Some of this thread is like the fucking Handmaid's Tale.

I can't believe I just read on Mumsnet that a man should be able to force a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy, and be forced to give birth against her wishes.

It's her body, and pregnancy and birth are not without risk.

It doesn't leave all of is a traumatised quivering emotional wreck and it's patronising to assume it does.

I didn't say it left everyone a quivering emotional wreck

I feel it's dismissive and unfair to bring 'poor menz' into it.

According to this thread a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy she decided to terminate will forevermore be haunted by her choice, physically and emotionally, and will never be able to move on, while a man who is not ready for fatherhood (and may be very young indeed and vulnerable himself) is a 'poor man(z)'? That's not on.

We can accept something isn't completely fair and can never be so without being sneery and sarcastic about it.

My parents taught us NOTHING about sex, periods, puberty or relationships. I learned from teenage magazines; my brother learned from porn swiped from friends. That's my PARENTS fault.

You didn't gold - it was insinuated on the first page. You did say that 'not many women walk away without a second thought' and in my opinion, they do. Very few women have the life of regret and distress the media would like us to believe they do.

if anyone wishes to live in a society where men have even more rights over the bodies and lives of "their" women there are still more plenty of countries where this happens. So the "fairer" way of doing things can be experienced by emigrating and intergrating into a number of other cultures.

I don't think it would be appropriate to serve notice on a man to decide whether he wants rights and responsibilities.
Firstly you have to accept that men should be able to change their mind on this subject- even if it happens years after the event- and secondly if a woman can't afford to support the child alone she will need the mans financial support regardless. Whilst practically speaking she may not get it anyway, the point is there should never be an option to absolve the man of that.

I agree with you Gold, but the woman has just as much (and one might argue more) responsibility to use contraception than the man. When i say more, it is because as we are discussing here, the woman is left with the physical consequences and she really doesn't have the option to walk away. That is just a fact of biology.

I wonder how often it has happened (if at all, it must have?) that a woman has been pregnant, not wanted the child but gave birth and allowed the father to care for it? It is not something i could do personally, however i also don't think i could have an abortion.

I do think that ultimately, the woman has the final say.

poor menz

Shame you can't refrain from using derogatory terms when trying to construct an argument. All this "menz" crap is stupid.

You did say that 'not many women walk away without a second thought' and in my opinion, they do. Very few women have the life of regret and distress the media would like us to believe they do.

Giving something a second thought and living a life of regret and distress are very different things.