AIBU to want to go boo hoo hahaha when men say they feel excluded by the the term "feminist"

[GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks like me...Go.

Trufflesnout good post, and I would add that many non-violent men also benefit from te violence of other men in the way that women treat them. Women are taught to be conciliatory, to make allowances for men, not to get in their way, in order to protect themselves from the potential violence of men. This is something that many non-violent men don't recognise, and find hard to take on board, but for many this adds to their path through life bein smoothed.

I am not of course discounting how many non-violent men are also deeply affected by the violence of other men. But I am referring here to the interactions between women and men

Women having equal rights isn't up for debate but the methodology can be, surely?

Which delaying tactic do we use now?

Berk1 don't tell me what to do.

Burke, you seem to be struggling with this so let me try a different approach.

It isn't all about you.

Really.

As a woman, I'm statistically more likely to be attacked by a man than by a woman. I am more likely to be sexually assaulted than a man, and that assault will almost certainly be by a man. If I am assaulted, I will be asked what steps I took to avoid the assault, and asked why I put myself in a situation where I might get assaulted.

So, while I know most men are great, I know also that this is a country with a well-documented undercurrent of rape culture and victim blaming. I know that statistically I am more am risk from men than I am from women, and I'm more at risk than men.

So yes, if it's late at night and you're the only other person in my train carriage, I'll move carriage. If you're waking down the street behind me on a deserted street, I'll cross the road. Like many women, I have been sexually assaulted. I have no desire to repeat the experience.

Because my evidence-based desire for self-preservation is now important to me than your desire not to feel like women are afraid of men in certain circumstances, and whatever detriment you feel stems from that.

Like many women, I have been sexually assaulted. I have no desire to repeat the experience. So until men stop being statistically more likely to attack women, I'll be avoiding 'risky' behaviours and situation.

burke is just being a berk :o

JassyRadlett you are describing something that is reasonable except for that you seem to only be applying it to men, unless you'd move carriages if it's just you and another woman, but from your post it didn't seem you would. Of course if I got this part wrong correct me.

I relate to this in certain situations. When I'm walking home at night I sometimes notice someone else walking close by and I remain alert to that whether it is a man or a woman. Men may be stronger than women but maybe that woman walking closely behind me has a knife. Of course the most likely outcome is that this man or woman is walking home the same way I am - Probably thinking "I hope I'm not worrying that person in front of me, I'll try overtaking them or drop back a bit to show I'm not a threat". Despite that being the most likely, it doesn't stop me from considering the alternatives. A potential attacker could be a man or women so I don't see a reason to only apply this to one gender. Sorry about your experience was the person brought to justice?

like spiders, that woman is almost certainly more afraid of you htan you are of her

Sorry about your experience was the person brought to justice?

Bwaaaaaaah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

You really have no clue, do you?

trufflesnout as you correctly said I disagree with blame culture. I know that my individual opinion doesn't change the stance of society but what is it that you expect me to do in that regard?

You said "everyone here understands that not all men are rapists" but recently someone said that "rapists are men". That implied that only men rape people when in fact both genders do. This downgrades the seriousness of rape because it connects it to gender, it's like saying that a man raped because he is a man. Which is untrue. A rapist commits their crime because they are a rapist. Gender isn't relevant.

You have mentioned valid concerns with our society and I'm as keen as you are that they are addressed. On your final point I'll have to say respectfully disagree because I see no valid reason in being cautious of an entire gender because of some of the crimes people of that gender commit. It would be like me treating all women as potential killers because of all the women in history who have murdered people. I accept that a woman I meet has no control over the fact that another person of her gender is violent. I judge all people on how I personally find them, not on the actions of their gender/skin colour/religious belief as a whole.

Burke, please do me a huge favour. Spend 5 mins, 10 mins, an hour - however much time you can spare - reading the experiences of women on The Everyday Sexism Project. Please.

AnnieLobeseder could you perhaps explain your last post a bit more? On reading that JassyRadlett was sexually abused, I wanted to express how sorry I was that a human should endure such an experience. I was interested in whether the perpetrator was ever brought to justice because a lot of the time it doesn't happen, and I was hoping that JassyRadletts case would be one of the times when justice did prevail.

Oh Burke, you poor dear.

Here's the truth. Scouts honour, I am not pushing an agenda, I am just telling you what I know.

When you're walking home at night and there is only person on the street and it's a woman, she is not worried about whether she's scaring you. She might not be worried at all. But if she is worried, it's because statistically you are far, far, far more likely to attack her than vice versa, and she doesn't know whether that's about to happen. She's been raised knowing this from the time she could understand it. She may have first hand proof. She may be more worried than statistically she needs to be, because there's an awful lot of scaremongering that goes on.

But if she is worried, she's worried about you. For statistically relevant, and socially encouraged reasons.

You're allowed to be worried too. Maybe she DOES have a knife and is about to mug you. Everyone's allowed to fear what they want, and sometimes those fears come true.

But I'm really sorry. That woman is absolutely not thinking 'maybe that guy thinks I'm a threat'. Because it is vanishingly rare that she is. And much, much more common that you are. Statistically. Not personally. It is rare to be violently attacked on the street. Really rare. It is significantly less rare for a woman to be harrassed or threatened on the street. Her worry isn't even about you having a knife, per se. It's about a multitude of things. It's even about just not wanting to have the conversation that begins 'hey sexy where you going' and ends with a quick walk to the front door feeling irritated by someone assuming your sexuality is their property to discuss or judge at will. That happens to me at least weekly. How often does it happen to you?

AnnieLobeseder I have visited that site a few times before and I agree the experiences are rather disgusting.

shaska I agree that statistically a man is more likely to hurt a woman in that situation. I feel that this does not address the issue. The problem is that a number of men are violent towards women, and a much smaller number of women are violent towards men. If we just treat this as a percentages game and teach people that a man is more likely to be violent, and be wary of all men in general (not personally to individual men) then it's just perpetuating it. It's accepting the situation for what it is now and making no attempts to really change it. We should be aiming to become a society where no one is a threat to each other.

You also asked me how often something like that happens to me. I'm rarely propositioned, on the few occasions I've been I close that conversation down right away.

The thing is Burke, if you were a woman, it wouldn't even occur to you to ask that question. Because you'd know that the assault most likely hadn't even been reported. Women don't report the everyday assaults we experience. There's no point.

If you have read the Every Sexism Project and still argue that sexual violence and violence in general is not a gendered problem, then I'm sorry but you must be very hard of thinking indeed.

how "lucky" for you that closing that conversation down right away is so easy

I'm rarely propositioned, on the few occasions I've been I close that conversation down right away.

When you closed that conversation down, did it occur to you to worry that being punched in the face, raped or killed was a real consequence? This is the everyday lived experience of women.

"You also asked me how often something like that happens to me. I'm rarely propositioned, on the few occasions I've been I close that conversation down right away."

Right. How did you close it down? Because I can ignore it, and that doesn't work. I can say 'leave me alone' and I get laughter and 'ooooo prissy bitch'. I can use strong language and have it returned to me, usually with some threats added. The thing that works is me removing myself from the area. This happens to me, as I said, at least weekly.

I agree that it would be ideal if nobody was afraid of anyone. But at the moment, I receive regular proof that my feelings of wariness about men on the street are not entirely unfounded. Regular proof. I wonder how often you see proof of your wariness of women on the street?

Well I suppose if they like we can include them and call them feminists and in exchange exclude them from most senior level positions in major companies and from the majority of seats in ANY country's government...or take away the vast majority of the world's wealth for them.

Totally willing to swap and let them feel included if they like.

Petula Excellent post on the ways in which men benefit from the violence of other men.

Men rarely let women close down a proposition though, do they?

The endless "you don't really mean that" "you'll change your mind" and continual pestering - because men don't treat women with respect and don't like us not agreeing with them. So saying no is treated like a game to men.

The other issue is that most women who experience harassment or assault don't report it - so I would think the actual statistics, if women all reported, would show women are way way more likely to be assaulted than men.

Recently, at a coffee morning/social I did an unscientific poll of asking the women who had experienced harassment or assault as their daily lives - we all had. Had any of us reported it? No.

AnnieLobeseder my question about the sexual abuse was a reasonable one. I fear that not reporting something because you think nothing will be done about it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Nothing is done about rape because people aren't reporting it because they know nothing is done about it, so the authorities are unable to take actions against rapists, so people don't bother reporting it.

Miggsie you said men "rarely" let women close down a proposition. The problem with trying to measure as a percentage how often men let it go as opposed to continually trying, we only ever hear about the times they didn't let it go. Very rarely if ever does someone say oh a man tried chatting me up, I said no, and he said ok and just left. There are undoubtedly a lot of instances where men don't let women close the proposition down but we can say with almost complete confidence that those are very much in the minority. We never hear about the 99 situations a man accepts a rejection and goes on his way, we hear about the 1 time a man didn't. And over time all those 1 times add up and we're left with an inaccurate idea that most propositions are like this.

Gosh I wish I lived in such a privileged bubble that I could dismiss women's lived experiences so confidently. It must feel lovely

Burke - it is quite plain to me now that you are here purely to goad women. Women who have made it clear to you that they have been subjected to male violence and sexual assault. You obviously get some sort of pleasure from continuing to so vastly miss the point, when women are sharing their experiences here, and that to me, is very very creepy.

The faux innocence of your posts is astounding: Ohhh! But surely you'd also move carriages if you were alone with a woman toooo?" or "That woman could have a knife"

Listen to yourself. Prisons are not full to bursting with hordes women who have been convicted of unprovoked stabbing of men on the streets. However, they are full of men who have been convicted of raping and assaulting women - and what's worse is that a substantial number of these violent and raping men are not even in prison - such are the appalling reporting and conviction rates for rape.

My labrador has a better understanding of life.

"When you closed that conversation down, did it occur to you to worry that being punched in the face, raped or killed was a real consequence? This is the everyday lived experience of women."

Never heard such paranoid drivel in all my life...
Feminism just like socialism is premised on the concept that the masses are ignorant of their true condition and need their "Consciousness raised" by a vanguard of intellectual academic elite.
Their mission to "Free women" from the tyranny of the "Patriarchy".. Which as a concept is a falsehood especially since the creation of the "Contraceptive pill", women are now free from pre industrial age societal division of labour, which placed women in their natural role of child birth and rearing, with men providing and protecting..
To pursue without it seems accountability all the freedoms men have allegedly enjoyed..
Be careful out their people it's dangerous.. Lol..