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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to want to go boo hoo hahaha when men say they feel excluded by the the term "feminist"

368 replies

GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman · 28/01/2015 23:39

Just wondering if anyone else thinks like me...Go.

OP posts:
ApocalypseThen · 29/01/2015 18:47

The problem is that it's mainly women asking for it to be dropped so of course it's a point of principle to not do it and also demonstrate how silly you know women really are.

maggiethemagpie · 29/01/2015 19:24

My partner is a SAHD and there's plenty of discrimination and gender bias and just the general presumption that the mother is the primary carer, and it bothers me (more than him) because as one very famous feminist whose name I have forgotten once said

We will never have equality in the workplace until we have it in the home

Burke1 · 29/01/2015 19:52

SconeRhymesWithGone I understand that you are talking about men as a whole, you're also including me in that because I'm a man. You're also including millions of innocent people. Innocent people that you pre judge their intentions based solely on their gender. Like I say I've seen a white woman beat someone up in the past, would it therefore be reasonable for me to consider all white people or all women as potential thugs? No it would not.

Burke1 · 29/01/2015 19:54

FloraFox do not call me "dear" again

NeedAScarfForMyGiraffe · 29/01/2015 20:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SconeRhymesWithGone · 29/01/2015 20:17

I do think that men can be feminists because I start with the dictionary definition, but even if I preferred to call them feminist allies, I don't think that's what the OP was referring to. I don't think there is a huge problem of male feminists feeling excluded by being called feminist allies.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 29/01/2015 20:48

FloraFox do not call me "dear" again

Ha ha. Walk a mile in our high heels shoes.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 29/01/2015 20:58

Burke1 - it's been explained over and over about women fearing men due to the risk of rape and violence. You don't get it - because you don't actually want to get it. You'd rather continue with 'us poor old men - we's all accused of being sex attackers all the time' [sad face]

If you thought about it for even a moment, you'd realise society gives women certain safety instructions from when they're knee high to a grasshopper about keeping safe. Safe from what, you ask? Well men of course! From male rape and violence against us. And when they don't follow that advice, and are attacked, they are blamed for having some 'responsibility' in that attack - for not following the advice. For walking the streets alone without fearing men, for getting drunk, for wearing heels, or a short skirt. We don't go about quivering in fear whenever a man comes onto the horizon, we don't point and hiss "Man! Rapist!" - but we are brought up with the knowledge that men can rape us, and can be violent towards us, that men can overpower us - and we don't know which men might do that.

I'll hazard a guess that you did not read 'Schrodingers Rapist' - because if you did, it certainly went in one ear and out the other.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 29/01/2015 21:03

Burke

So we shouldn't fear men or see them all as potential rapists or abusers.

But when we get raped or abused it's our own faults for 'asking for it' by apparently dressing the wrong way, or behaving the wrong way, or, y'know, having a rapist in our family, or marrying one, or being good friends with one.

We can't win.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 29/01/2015 21:12

(FWIW I don't see all men as potential rapists or abusers; contrary to popular belief, feminists don't hate men as a rule - I'm engaged to one, would you believe it?!)

I just think you can't deny that women get a rough deal in that area.

BruceTwee · 29/01/2015 21:40

Women are free to think what they will of men and ultimately I suppose I am a potential rapist, abuser, murderer, thief or any other despicable individual that one can imagine. There's not much I can do if I walk past a woman and she feels threatened, other than crossing the street (which I'm happy to do).

The only thing I can do to improve society is to be one of those men that doesn't live up to the stereotype, which is easy enough.

How you change the percentage of men that are despicable is the challenge.

As for feeling excluded? What's to get precious about? It's possible to strive for equality but not be a feminist. One can be many things without attaching a label.

GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman · 29/01/2015 21:42

Burke "we can't win".

Fantastic I savour your tears. I'm so pleased that you are on this thread as you are illustrating my point perfectly. Keep em coming honey... (Dearie, sweetie, etc.. Etc..) Grin

OP posts:
RufusTheReindeer · 29/01/2015 22:00

I should imagine that asking anyone on here not to call you dear (although you didn't ask!,) is a bit like waving a red flag at a bull

Grin
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 29/01/2015 22:05

The only thing I can do to improve society is to be one of those men that doesn't live up to the stereotype, which is easy enough.

That's the sort of thing my lovely old Dad used to say Smile

MrsTerryPratchett · 29/01/2015 22:08

The fact is that a lot of us feminists marry Schrodinger's rapist. I met my DH in a bar, both a bit pissed. My wing-woman checked his passport before I went off with him. He didn't bat an eyelid. He has a sister and understands that some men are rapists and murderers.

If I check him out and have my friend call me later and have a code word and take down names and number plates and so on, I am a hysterical man-hating crazy. If I don't I'm a reckless slut who is asking for it.

This bloke gets it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 29/01/2015 22:11

My husband get's it. My dad got it. I will teach it to my sons. It's really not that difficult.

I always hoped that society would be a bit more enlightened by the time my sons were grown - but they're 13 and 10 now, and if anything, watching the Ched Evans case, and the Page 3 furore, it's getting worse. Certainly no better.

RichardInBermuda · 30/01/2015 00:48

In 1990 at school a fellow pupil asked a question that so inragged our teacher that she sent him outside for 5 minutes wearing only a shirt in a snow storm. That question was.....Why do women retire at 60 and men at 65; especially when women have a life expectancy 3 years longer than men? The lesson I learnt that day was any issue about women keep your mouth shut.Im a man and a feminist. I think the biggest obstical feminism has is the inclusion of men. If the problem is that men hold all the power then surely it would help to allow us in the debate.

Burke1 · 30/01/2015 01:30

SabrinaMulhollandJjones I don't approve of men who call women names they don't like. I'm a man who feels that "cute/pet" names should be confined to people in a relationship with each other, or friends who give each other nicknames. So I've not called anyone who wasn't my girlfriend "dear" because I feel I don't have the right to. Forgive me if I was a bit rough in telling Flora not to do it again but I didn't really understand what I'd done to deserve it. I thought it might possibly be a "teach him a lesson" thing so you could try and show me what women can face on a daily basis? While there are some arguments for using that method on people who are guilty of it (giving them a taste of their own medicine), it is counter productive to do so to others. I've made a polite request that people don't address me as anything other than Burke or Burke1. I know that sleazy men shouting out names at women on the street wouldn't pay attention to a request to stop but I don't think that Flora or anyone else is on the same level as those people. So I've asked nicely, and it's up to you and others whether you accept that request not to call me names that you know I don't like.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom the number of men that think the way you just described are in a very small minority in this country. Unfortunately that minority is a lot more vocal than the majority which can give a mistaken impression that men in general just don't care or think a rape victim asked for it.

Burke1 · 30/01/2015 01:37

MrsTerryPratchett definitely not disagreeing with what you did because I've done similar in the past with a girl I met. I agree it's better to be safe than sorry.

Burke1 · 30/01/2015 02:01

GoddessWhoWalksEarthAsWoman I'd like to point out that while you may indeed "enjoy your tears", I feel that what you're doing is undermining efforts at getting gender equality for women. You feel that men shouldn't call women names they don't like. But you don't seem willing to stop doing it yourself. My concern is that if you call men names while knowing they don't like it, a man may at some point use that justification to do the same to a woman "Let's see if women cash take namecalling as well as dishing it out".

The two of us can't really do much about what other people do but we do have the power to make the positive change of 2 people deciding not to call each other names out of acknowledgement and respect for the other persons wishes. Such a small change doesn't register in the bigger picture but a small positive change is ultimately better than no change.

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 30/01/2015 02:09

Burke equally, the number of men who believe all men should be treated as potential abusers/rapists are in a minority. But it's still trotted out on here as an example of supposed disadvantage for men.

(Being aware that men are statistically more likely to be abusers and rapists, and stating that fact, is not the same thing as fearing all men and treating them all as potential abusers and rapists).

Richard

If the problem is that men hold all the power then surely it would help to allow us in the debate.

There are two problems with this -

  1. Men shouldn't hold all the power in the first place. Feminism is trying to stop this, so we shouldn't be asking for men to 'help us' because they shouldn't be in that position of power in the first place.

  2. There are some (not all, but IME a surprising amount) men who like to wade into the debate, tell us women how to 'do' feminism properly (because we're doing it all wrong), criticise us when we don't take their advice (often describing us as man-hating harpies and similar), and, following any feminist success, insist it's only because men allow it, and how we wouldn't be able to do it without the help of men.

What would help is if these and other men realise and accept that feminism isn't, and shouldn't be, about them. It isn't about men; it isn't about hurting them or hating them, or taking their privilege away 'because they're men', it's about levelling the playing field to benefit women - not at the detriment of men, but to address the gaping inequality that already exists.

Yes, the term feminism applies to women, and is woman-centric, and excludes men. As it should - not because it 'hurts' men, but because it has absolutely nothing to do with men. It is all about levelling the playing field so that women have equal rights.

I'm not sure what about this is so difficult to understand for some people (not aimed at either of you specifically, burke or richard, but in general at those who complain that feminism is excluding men)

ApocalypseThen · 30/01/2015 06:28

If the problem is that men hold all the power then surely it would help to allow us in the debate.

The fact that you think women's rights are subject to debate means that excluding you is the correct course of action. You've nothing to contribute.

BruceTwee · 30/01/2015 06:35

That's a bit harsh Apocalypse

Women having equal rights isn't up for debate but the methodology can be, surely?

I often find debates between feminist groups very interesting due to the differing POV's.

trufflesnout · 30/01/2015 06:54

I have to say, there's a fair bit of "women don't need to be afraid of us, not all men are bad" on this thread, which misses the point made by those who are trying to explain why women feel a persistent threat wrt men.

It is not because the individual poses a threat, per se. Everyone here understands that not all men are rapists - a large majority of women on this board are married to or in a relationship with a man.

But we have a societal framework which holds women back. We have a society which lets men behave freely and encourages women to protect themselves to avoid assault, or to deal with the abusive consequences of acting freely.

Men feel comfortable approaching and harassing women in the street, on public transport. If I interact back positively I am leading on, I am a slut. If I interact negatively, I can't take a compliment, I'm a feminist. If I don't react at all, I am frigid - a challenge to pursue.

We have a blame culture: you were asking for it. You can deny all you like that this exists because you, as an individual male, disagree with victim blaming. Good. But this doesn't change the stance of our patriarchal society.

Women are also commonly poorly cared for by services charged with protecting her after an abuse or rape has occurred. The police force are notoriously bad for handling rape cases.
Only recently (2014) were the police praised for producing a piece of information material which discouraged men against rape, rather than suggesting women behave/dress in a manner which would not provoke rape. It is a huge positive step - but it only happened 3 months ago!

The point is not that every individual male I meet will rape me, or threaten to rape me, but that if I were raped, society would turn against me - and so I protect myself; I am cautious. It is nothing personal against you.

TheChandler · 30/01/2015 06:56

BruceTwee In 1990 at school a fellow pupil asked a question that so inragged our teacher that she sent him outside for 5 minutes wearing only a shirt in a snow storm. That question was.....Why do women retire at 60 and men at 65; especially when women have a life expectancy 3 years longer than men? The lesson I learnt that day was any issue about women keep your mouth shut.Im a man and a feminist. I think the biggest obstical feminism has is the inclusion of men. If the problem is that men hold all the power then surely it would help to allow us in the debate.

Possibly not the best example, since we have had equal retirement ages for some years now. A bit like how women are no longer expected to wear long skirts covering their ankles. Times change. Society changes. There are still many examples of inequality around - at a similar time (I'm guessing) to your example, I was taken on as a graduate trainee for a salary I later found to be a couple of thousand lower than every other trainee, who were male. Despite having better qualifications and more relevant experience. There was no possible justification for it. And as is the way, I only found out a year or so down the line, by asking them.

In that same workplace, one of the other graduate male trainees was constantly absent, at least 50% of the time. I had to cover his work. We didn't get overtime. He didn't suffer from any disability or ongoing illness (it was probably due to his dj-ing in his spare time). The manager's only comment on his absence - "what a boy, eh?" In other words, he got away with it. That manager is now in a position of some power nationally.

Also in that same workplace, I had to travel by car to meetings with an older male employee. He started making inappropriate comments, with sexual references, and excluding me and talking over me at the meetings. It was obvious to me even then, as a raw 22 year old, that he was trying to control me in order to have some kind of workplace fling (he told me about his various conquests and how he cheated on his wife). I didn't stand it for long - I took him aside, informed him of the consequences of sexual harassment and told him to take it as a serious warning (and he did, never bothered me again).

The bigger picture is I think these men were not that competitive in the workplace - they simply weren't very good at their jobs, but they got there because they were men. My heart still sinks when I have to deal with yet another useless employee who makes more noise than effort, and there are a lot of them about. That's changing, and that is what some men don't like about feminism. So you can whine all you like that "it isn't fair" - but its due in many cases to men's lack of competitiveness on a level playing field, which in part at least is explained by traditional male attitudes towards some fictional notion of inherent superiority without having to work for it. Even your example of differential retirement ages, which you hold up as an example of something favouring men - it didn't really. It was a relic of some notion that women were somehow weaker and more frail than men, so should be treated differently. That notion is not something that benefits women in the workplace.

Now, there is no way on this planet that I am going to put up with inequality or abuse being shouted at me in the street or whatever, and from their reactions, I can see this still surprises some men (whether that be in the workplace or in the street, such as when I called the police to complain about the man who threatened to murder me when I was out running because I objected to a crude sexual remark that he made). I realise that it is difficult for some men to accept, because they cannot adapt to progress. But that is not my problem.