To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

Whereas organ donation is an entirely different thing altogether and is entirely for the benefit of the recipient.

But it's not for everyone - some families will find it very useful to know their loss has helped someone else.

Love it.

You must smile and snigger every time you think of him.

The afterlife certainly became full of laughter when he arrived.

He sounds a very special wonderful boy.

x

We could not donate anything of our child's as she had leukaemia. I wish we had been able to, it would have helped to think of part of her as still alive, in someone else, rather than just . . . gone. And she would have done it in a heartbeat if it were possible. She was such a thoughtful, selfless person.

If there's anything of mine someone can use, I hope it's possible for me to give. I won't need it wherever I'm going. I hope it's no longer possible for my family to override my wishes.

They can carve me up as much as they like, they'll be burning the rest of it to ashes, what's the difference?

I think the family deserve praise for making this difficult decision & hope they can get some comfort from the knowledge that their child has helped others.

I believe very strongly that organ donation is a GOOD thing, would be very happy for it to be an opt out thing. I would want my organs to be transplanted to help others if they can be & am very thankful to all those donors & donors' next of kin who have made that decision.

I don't understand the "carving up" terminology at all.

Is it still the case that NOK are asked even if the person is a registered donor?

TBH OP, I really don't understand your outrage as parents decide many things on their children's behalf.

If a child is too young to have made the decision themselves, what's wrong with asking the parents?

blendedfamilygrinch
The carved up terminology probably comes from people's minds creating an image worthy of a horror film, an intense emotional response creating a worst case scenario. Alternatively, they've had the misfortune to meet the team dh and his bil's families dealt with.

fakename... how long is a piece of string. Thankfully my niece it's strong enough not to need a second transplant.

This is to do with better processes before and after transplant. Which leads to a stronger rebound and better health after the op leading to the organ remaining strong. Organs can be moved around the country a lot quicker leading to shorter times between the ops and a healthier organ being transplanted.

Patient treatments are better as well which means many recipients are better prepared to received both physically and emotionally.

Hi Kate

Completely agree that leaving the thread is beneficial and creates debate, but do you think you might be able to edit the op? I know Baby has apologised for her turn of phrase and I'm absolutely sure that no harm was meant whatsoever, but having been in that position reading it back does sting a bit. However you might well feel that, having read it once, I shouldn't read it again - which I wholeheartedly accept!

X

diddl nok are always asked...and yhei consent is required.

OP. You are being very unreasonable for posting in such a crass and thoughtless way about such a sensitive subject.
I have been involved with transplantation as a surgeon both implantation and retrieval. As others have said earlier organs can be retrieved after brain stem or cardiac death. When a person has had a massive brain injury and has been through rigorous testing to ensure that they are brain stem dead, they may have a beating heart but they are not alive.
As sdt said earlier the retrieval team treat the donor and the family with the utmost respect. The first time I retrieved organs from a young woman with brain stem death i wept silently as I stitched my patient up with tiny neat stitches, carefully washed and dressed any wounds and I thought of the mother who would sit and kiss her beloved daughter in the chapel of rest later.
I regard parents who give this huge gift of life to another are brave and generous and selfless.
The final point to consider is that of size. You cannot transplant adult organs into a sick baby or young child as they are simply too big. There is a desperate shortage of small organs for those sick babies and children waiting for organs. This makes the gift of these parents of baby X especially wonderful.

Their, not yhei.

@Ohfourfoxache

Hi Kate

Completely agree that leaving the thread is beneficial and creates debate, but do you think you might be able to edit the op? I know Baby has apologised for her turn of phrase and I'm absolutely sure that no harm was meant whatsoever, but having been in that position reading it back does sting a bit. However you might well feel that, having read it once, I shouldn't read it again - which I wholeheartedly accept!

X

Hullo fourfoxache - we can totally see what you mean, and Baby did ask if we could edit it out of the OP. We're not trying to be obstinate, or cause any more upset (truly, it's the last thing we want), but since the phrase has been repeated quite a bit, and it's been made reference to - if we removed it, the whole thread wouldn't make any sense, you'd get people asking what is was in the OP that upset everyone and it would probably have the opposite effect that we wanted. If possible, we think it'd be more beneficial to everyone involved if the thread could move on to discuss organ donation in a more positive/general way.

NUMBER SEVEN Misdee??! Congratulations! :o

olympicsrock Thank you for your honesty and candour.

The obvious respect you have for your patients and their families helps families like mine, who have given such difficult consent.

We only had her for 6 weeks, she has been gone for 15 years, but I promise you there is not a day that my baby doesn't figure significantly in my thoughts (and dreams).

Knowing that parts of her are still "alive" makes the loss less bitter.

Well, I think I can give a good perspective.
Last Wednesday, after years of illness, limited life and waiting, my ds finally got his new kidney.
Early days here but he is delighted as are we. He is talking about his future for the first time in his short adulthood.
I am finally feeling that I can relax a little bit and stop worrying about him or finishing work and then lugging a ton of dialysis fluid up to his flat, or breaking my heart when he says no girl will ever want him with big dialysis tubes sticking out of his tummy, or watching him listen to his mates talk about holidays. You get the picture.
Last Wednesday after receiving the "call" at 4.30am, my first reaction was to cry for the other family. We have continued to be in awe of them making such a brave choice and helping so many people.
I really can't ever know how it felt for the donors family but I do know how it's made us feel and what a massive be difference it will make to ds.

This has been one of the most distasteful threads I've seen on MN, I was so shocked by the OP, though I know that the worst terminology has been retracted. At least there has been some insight posted amongst the ignorance.

Thank you to shabbs and CallMeExhausted for sharing your stories! I'm so humbled to hear them.

My DCs wouldn't be here in some other family hadn't made a selfless decision and allowed their loved one's organ to have gone to my DH.

Oh Ledkr that's wonderful news! All the best for your DS.

Remembering all those brave families out there.

Fakenamefornow I am a bit surprised that your nurse friend has such a narrow view about transplants. It may be true, depending on what's transplanted, that the organ only last a short time but it can often be enough time for things to move on in the medical world. DS is a case in point. He had a balloon angioplasty in his heart when he was a couple of weeks old. Withiut it he would have died within a month. Thirty years ago he would have died, the procedure didn't exist for such young people.

Now,although he has to have annual check ups and the 'threat' of having to have the same again or surgery to replace his heart valve is always in our heads at those check ups, he does games at school, swims (at the moment twice a day as his school swimming lesson is the same day as his leisure swimming lesson), is growing well, has a reading age of twelve hasn't had a day off school ill in a year. Science moved on and it saved him.

One thing he may need when he is older is the Ross procedure. That replaces an aortic valve with a patients own pulmonary one meaning they don't have to have medication to keep the blood thin as you do for stents or mechanical valves. That was invented in 1967.

My point is that science and medicine doesn't stand still. If it did many of us would be dead now I am sure. My mum is diabetic, she has insulin, a relatively recent medicine. With transplants there is always hope for the future. Without them there is no future. I know what I would like for my son if he ever needed it. Ten years means ten years closer to a cure or better choices.

I am on the donor register as is DH. I am down for everything. As I am being cremated I can't see the point of taking anything with me as they'd all be ash anyway and if my organs allow one person to have the chance of ten years life and the potential for more if science works for them, that's a good enough outcome for me. Better than the thought that my death just ended everything.

Thanks sav funnily enough he's just got home! he is looking forward to his first night in his bed without being wired to a machine

Thanks for considering Kate - completely understand x

Might step away until after tomorrow - feeling a bit fragile about it all this week

Oh ledkr. That's wonderful. Enjoy this new normal xxx

And if you use FB there is a 'transplant chat' group there that is lovely.

Ledkr What a poignant post. I was in hospital when I got the 'call' so to speak but my first thoughts, like yours, were for the donor and their family.

Hope your ds has a speedy recovery.

I don't think the argument that parents give consent to medical treatment can be used for parents giving consent to organ donation. Whatever the rights and wrongs are. Because medical procedure is for the good of the child receiving it. Whereas organ donation is an entirely different thing altogether and is entirely for the benefit of the recipient. I did not agree with new born babies' organs being used in this way

Except that parents can also make shitty decisions which WITHHOLDS beneficial medical treatment. Measles outbreaks, anybody? Parents can deliberately refuse to immunise their children. That's NOT in the best interest in the child. Likewise, this sentence is just plain creepy:

Whereas organ donation is an entirely different thing altogether and is entirely for the benefit of the recipient

As opposed to the benefit of the - already dead - donor? (I mean this with the GREATEST respect to people who have been through donations on either side).

Of course it's for the benefit of the recipient you bloody idiot! The other person is dead! A dead person benefits no more or no less from keeping organs that they quite obviously won't be using any more. That's part of the very reason WHY people take comfort in it.

So according to the OP, a parent shouldn't be able to make the decision to switch off life support. Ever. Because it's not directly beneficial to the person, who can't give their consent.

It's like the OP is posting from Cloud Cuckoo land.