To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

i don,t think THE op ment to be horrible as some have suggested .but if i am to be honest could i have done this is the same situation .no probably not .we would all like to think we would be selfless and donate our childs organs but most of us would,nt because like it or not the person is still technically alive when taken into the theatre to donate .and yes there body is carved up .

I think that what the parents of this child did was incredibly selfless and amazing, even through grief that I cannot begin to imagine, they made a decision to help others, I'm in absolute awe of them.
I do think that for adults it should be a case of opting out rather than in. There must be many people who would want their organs to be donated should the worst happen but could be scuppered by next of kin not allowing it. Opting out as a system is clear and captures those who don't mind but haven't ever thought about/got round to registering.

I just want to second everything WannaBe has said (again).

I work with someone who, for reasons I am not privy to, is not on the donor list. Some may call him selfish and say he doesn't deserve medical treatment. However, I see the work he does with the hospice charity we both volunteer for. He has made a direct difference to so many lives already. He's certainly not selfish. Yes, he might be able to do more, but I would say he has certainly done more than his fair share already, and is no "asshole"

Should we make blood donation compulsory? Bone marrow donation? Participation in medical studies? That could save lives if people would only do it. How about breastmilk donation?

What about people who don't work and can't contribute to the system? Should they be denied treatment? How about those who have medical conditions that mean they can't donate? Do we refuse to treat them too? Do we put smokers at the back of the list? Drinkers?

I can't stand all this preaching about who is worthy of treatment and who is not, especially when we're talking about something so personal and so emotive.

Everyone is equally deserving of treatment. Healthcare should never be a quid pro quo arrangement.

For the record, I am NOT on the donor list. Because my body is going to science. Perhaps I am an asshole too.

Reindeer, Yes peters story was on her own blog and lltgl blogs. And after Sophie was born as well. I also withdrew for a while as needed to take time to process all we have been through as a family. The media coverage was intense and we needed to just be a family again.
Peter is doing well, is back at work, I am busy with our ever expanding family and slowly thinking about what the next step is once dd6 is here safely.

I love the transplant community, but someday I wish it was a community that I didn't know about. So much heartache and pain. As the years roll on, it gets harder.

Haven't read the whole thread, but my ex is the recipient of two donated organs. I knew what life was like for him beforehand. Nothing in his life or lifestyle contributed to his organ failure - just bad luck or something inherited from somewhere meant he led a half-life from early 20s as his condition severely limited every aspect of his life.
No one knows until they are in the situation of either needing an organ or being asked to give consent for organs to be harvested how they would react.
One thing we can all do is make sure our wishes are known so that relatives in a critical moment don't have to worry about what we might or might not want.
Personally, I'm in favour of a presumed consent system and from where I sit in the healthy comfort of my sofa I say unhesitatingly that I expect my organs to be donated if it came to it and give my consent from my DCs organs to be reused.
One thing we can't know and please OP can't be presumed to know is what the parents of the donor feel now, felt at the time and what they thought before this situation occurred.

have not read the whole thread but

1. The parents made the decision on behalf of their child as she did not have capacity, being a baby. Just like they would have made the decisision for any life saving operations
2. I think presumed consent should be the norm.
3. I am on the donor list and have told DH to let any hospital have what they want. DH has done the same.

Aprilanne - please do a tiny bit if reading before you spout nonsense about such an important and emotive subject.

I was a theatre nurse, and I can assure you that organ donation is done with the utmost care and respect. Everyone present knows, and appreciates the sacrifice that the relatives are making, and would do nothing to make things worse for them.

Also, once brain stem death has occurred (and organ donation will NOT happen unless brain stem death has happened), the person is dead, no chance of life. The circulation is still working, but the person is dead.

I think that regardless of whether you believe in an opt in or opt out orgman donor system, what has sparked so much debate in this thread is the OP's ignorance 'Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.' And crass insensitivity and judgementalism in suggesting that the parents were somehow disrespecting their precious child by helping others.

It's understandable that it may not be a decision that would suit everyone. Donation is a difficult decision for all involved. But to publicly criticise and judge a painful decision in which parents put the lives of others over their own pain is both astonishing and hideously judgemental.

Their child is dead already. There is no possible harm to their child whatsoever. The only possible casualty in this is their feelings. And they rate their feelings over someone else's life.

It might not be just their feelings. It could be their religious beliefs, and whether you or I or anyone else agrees with those beliefs or not is irrelevant. Even if it weren't for religious reasons, there will be some people who would feel it's wrong to do it - I wouldn't agree with them, but that doesn't mean I can't respect their beliefs. It isn't a subject which has a definite right or wrong; it's not black or white, and it's possible that my beliefs are wrong.

I know one of the things that helps me is having seen my father's body after he died. It was just his body, it wasn't him any more, even if it looked like him. It wasn't possible to use any of his organs, but I would have consented if it had been. Still, part of us also knows that at some point, in the normal run of things, parents go before we do. Would I feel the same if it were my child? I don't know. I don't know whether my theoretical beliefs that donation would be right would hold up if put to the test.

If people don't like the idea of an opt-out system (and I can appreciate why some people don't like the idea), how would they feel about a system that required someone from the medical staff, or a transplant coordinator, or a counsellor attached to the hospital, having, by law, to ask the relatives if they are willing to consider organ donation?

Or perhaps inclusion of the facts and ethics of organ donation in PHSE classes at senior school? And perhaps more in the way of education of adults too (a public information campaign of some sort).

My dad died very suddenly, and due to his age, most of his organs were not suitable for donation, but mum chose to donate his corneas - and it is a real comfort knowing he helped two people see again.

Like EBear, I went to see him at the Chapel of Rest, and that was very important for me, because his death had been so sudden and unexpected, but it was so clear that he was no longer there. Dh was in the room with his dmum when she passed away at the beginning of December, and said exactly the same - even though it had been only minutes, if that, she was no longer there. Sadly, as she died of cancer, and at home, organ donation was not an option, but in different circumstances, I am sure he and his brother would have been willing to agree to donation.

I don't think using phrases like 'carved up' is in any way appropriate.

I think the parents have done an amazing thing and allowed their little girl to leave an unbelievable legacy.

If my child was one of the children on the transplant list would I be arguing ethics? No. That's what I try and go by. An immediate family member of mine has had a transplant so it's very difficult for me to be objective here but this case is no different in terms of consent than any other child organ donor regardless of age and, in actual fact, afaik adults can even have their wishes overridden by relatives when it comes to it.

I would hate to think when I die that my loved ones would refuse to donate any part of me that may be useful to someone else. I have made it very clear that I wish to donate any organs.

2 lives have been saved, for me, that says it all.

Any parent who makes this most selfless, caring and kind decision at the worst point in their own life is simply amazing. I am in awe of each and every one of them. YABVU.

Yabvvvvvvvvvu.

SDTG I would be absolutely fine with that. I don't agree with opt-out but I would definitely agree with higher profile campaigning and medical staff asking relatives.

I agree very much with you that we need much more education and awareness on the matter. I've always thought it ought to be a question you're asked when you have your annual checkup / flu jab etc at the doctors. For so many people, the only time they see anything asking them to sign up is on their drivers licence form. I know it's the only time I've seen it.

It's a moot point for me as I'm already committed to something else, so I'm not on the donor register anyway. It was a very difficult decision for me to make, I sat on the forms for about two months, and at times the thought of it made me feel really quite ill. For me, signing away my brain / organs / body was a really, really big thing, and I can totally understand and respect why some people may simply not want to donate.

FyreFly - doing it at a normal doctor's visit would be a really good idea - otherwise the question has to be asked at a point when people are in such a sad and emotional situation.

SDGT I have always wondered why they DON'T ask at the GPs. I switched my surgery about 18 months ago and there wasn't even anything on the registration form. It would be the ideal place to ask (at a routine checkup sort of appointment, not one where you're cradling a broken arm or vomiting child), as it's a calm, professional environment, I'm sure they could get hold of tonnes of leaflets, and you have a captive doctor to fire questions at. Even if someone doesn't sign then and there they can still go away armed with pamphlets and it will be in their mind.

I haven't got a problem with people opting out, that should be ab option, organ donation should not be forced, I do have a problem with the op generalising and making hurtful sweeping statements. Yes it is the choice of the next of kin as to whether to donate their loved ones organs. The child/person does not have the capacity to make that decision. I think you see it in a different way to most op, it's not carving them up needlessly, it's removing organs to give other children and people life.

I have always wondered why they DON'T ask at the GPs

Because they already have enough to do in a 10 minute appointment, I should think.

But you're right that there should at least be something available on the registration form, information available (in the form of leaflets, at least, and links for surgeries with an online presence.)

The only place I routinely see it is at blood donor sessions, and you know you've got people who are already that way inclined anyway.

In every case of organ donation, the relatives have to give permission, even if the person carries an organ donor card and is on the register.

According to a paper I have found, written by the Royal College of GPs, the Human Tissue Act of 1961 states that the hospital administrator is actually in legal possession of the body, but whilst this means they could, in theory, carry out an organ harvest on someone who is a registered organ donor, against the wishes of the next of kin, but in practice they would not do this as it would cause further suffering to the relatives.

It also says that, even in countries where there is an opt-out system, doctors will not take organs against the wishes of the next of kin.

Relationships mentioned as a reason for non donation is usually misguided most religions and all major religions allow free choice of the individual or positively encourage it.www.donorrecovery.org/learn/religion-and-organ-donation/
Even Jehovah's witnesses do not object. Please have a look at the linked article and have a discussion with your religious guide/teacher\ leader as you may be surprised

Argh spell check religion not relationship

Op the parents of the baby consented, the hospital did not just take the organs without consent, your op is very misleading. It probably helps the grieving knowing that your childs organs will be used to keep others alive, and to spare families the heartache if loosing a child. Knowing that your chikds heart is beating in somebody else, that their kidney is enabling another to live life to the full. Yes the way the op was written was very insensitive. Op you are thinking this as you or your family have never been in a position where they might you might need a donor organ to keep you or your child alive. I think you would think differently if you were in that position.