To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

Ten years ago I was in absolute turmoil, having had a newborn who had a severly blocked bowel . He was dying and I was informed he may not make the journey necessary to the hospital which could operate in him. He did survive (thank goodness) but was diagnosed with a serious medical condition, called cystic fibrosis

I was deeply upset and it was a very traumatic time for me. I contacted the CF trust and got to know a lovely young woman suffering from CF. She reassured me that I would cope and that I could be strong enough to raise a boy who would battle hard against his medical condition.

That lady eventually needed her own lung transplant. She was very ill when I finally got the chance to meet her (at a fundraising gig - she managed to walk the last 100m which is impressive with broken lungs). She got her call - she received new lungs in her early 20's. She went on to marry and had a child.

Unfortunately her lungs deteriorated and following her second transplant she sadly passed away recently. She was 28 years old.

Whilst being on the transplant list the first time she created this website to help those who struggled to understand organ donation
m.livelifegivelife.org.uk

I live on the knowledge that my now ten year old will one day be in the same position and it terrifies me.

However what upsets me most is those who disagree. These tend to be perfectly healthy people who haven't lived a life with a loved one on the transplant list. It's the complete lack of comprehension of why their opinions may cause distress to others.

Don't like it - think it's yucky? Please just count your stars that you've not been in the position if requiring another's organ to live, instead of criticising everyone else.

This is why we need more education, so that people can understand that their child will be treated respectfully and carefully.

It is not "carving up", it is a delicate operation done with care and respect.

'Carving her up for parts' sounds horrifically like the treatment of a burnt out car.

It's of the most specialist surgeries, carried out by highly trained professionals with delicacy and knowledge- and respect- carried out, in this case, in arguably the best healthcare system in the world.

Don't be so silly. Or self centred.

It's an amazing thing- genuinely amazing- that even in the darkest despair, people can think of others and do such a thing.

I bet if it were your child, you would happily receive an organ. Or be rightly enraged at the thought of something that couldn't have saved them, disintegrating underground.

Wow, Trills. Just wow. How utterly shocking and insensitive.

The feelings of the bereaved parents have to come first. Jesus, their child will have just died. You expect them to be able to be coherent and make important decisions based on someone elses feelings at a time like that?

Jesus wept.

Sorry- could have saved them

No, trills is right- more education and normalisation is needed. That's why, for example, people are keen for an opt-out system- so organ donation is the norm, whilst still respecting relatives decisions and feelings.

Relatives feelings do indeed have to come first. But this, and promoting organ donation aren't mutually exclusive. Many relatives of people who have donated their organs find this, as time goes on, their best coping mechanism through their grief.

Things can be done sensitively.

As I said, we need to have better education so that this isn't a sudden and upsetting decision to make at that time, without ever having thought about it beforehand.

And it's not a decision about someone else's feelings.

It's a decision about their feelings but about someone else's life.

Opies what did you read exactly? I thought Trills wrote reasonably

If you want uplifting - watch this video where parents listen to their sons heart beating in recipients chest. Have the hankies ready

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11255544/Father-listens-to-dead-sons-heart-beating-in-donors-chest.html

Fully agree with Trills.

Reindeer, I knew her too

"Of course people are judging parents who would choose not to donate their child's organs

Because they are saying that they would rather another child (or maybe more than one) died, rather than that they felt uncomfortable or upset.

Their child is dead already. There is no possible harm to their child whatsoever. The only possible casualty in this is their feelings. And they rate their feelings over someone else's life."

Nobody is responsible for someone else's life. Nobody has an obligation, moral or otherwise to take responsibility for the potential life of someone else, if that were the case blood, bone marrow, stem cell donation would all be compulsory and anyone who disagreed should be harshly judged.

Anyone who loses a child does not sit there and think "I'd rather that child died," they think they are losing their precious child, and the idea of someone removing that child's organs is incomprehensible to them.

But God forbid they should be allowed to have feelings eh.

Nobody is apparently allowed to judge how it must feel to be in need of a transplant unless you have been there. Well, surely nobody should be allowed to judge a parent's decision to not donate their child's organs in their time of grief unless you have been there.

My much loved, much missed dbil donated his heart pancreas and kidneys following a brain haemorrage. My dsis found great comfort at the idea that his donation saved several lives and improved the lives of several more. From the outside looking in the whole process from discussing donation to harvesting was done with great sensitivity and huge support and respect for dbil and dsis. To this day some years on, I still feel comfort from the idea that a little part of him is still living life somewhere out there. It was only after dsis signed consent that she was informed dbil was already registered so she knew it was what he wanted. It was a tragedy and so terribly sad but I know dsis has no regrets. She still has yearly updates from the coordinator regarding how the recipients are doing. I have no negative view of donation. Whatever clumsy expression is used, it is the most selfless of acts and I am happy for, and have registered for any part of me to be used after my death.

trills I agree with your education point but actually you are making the key issue far to simplistic - you are saying that prime facie we should regard a dead body as a commodity - a collection of spare parts and you are insulting and dismissive of any "feelings" that anyone may have about this. I fully support donation myself but having been in the position of holding my dead baby I know it's not so simple. Its not about knowing the donation will be done with care and respect it's not about knowing that lives could be saved - no amount of education can prepare you for the life shattering, all encompassing grief that you experience when your child dies that defies any logic. Yes we can all understand that more lives are at stake but to diminish the life of a person who has died to say that it's just a body and no harm will be done to it in the process is disrespectful and dehumanising to that person and their loved ones who ultimately have to bear the burden of choice in such circumstances (and it will always be a heavy and sometimes an unbearable burden no matter how simple the logic of saving another life might be).

I'm not reading the thread (too upsetting a subject) but yabMASSIVELYur.

Those people will be going through hell and they've done the most amazing thing.

RIP wee baby and I'm so sorry for your loss parents

Trills - sadly it isn't always the case that the families are treated with care...or even that the donor(s) will be spoken about with respect.

I don't judge parents who do not choose to donate their childrens organs.

Choosing to do so is a selfless act, but losing a child is the most terrible thing. Parents who have lost a child have and will continue to have the option, which can only be right. To force parents hands after a terrible loss via some "if you don't donate your child's organs, another of your children can never receive an organ donation" type system would be horrendously cruel.

Thank you, rainbowtoddler for putting it so well.

'Their child is dead already. There is no possible harm to their child whatsoever. The only possible casualty in this is their feelings. And they rate their feelings over someone else's life.'

I've read a lot of pig ignorant comments on this board in the past 10 years. This one is up there in the top 5.

misdee she was fantastic, wasn't she?

I lost touch for a short time - my own fault - a couple of deaths in the Cf community left me feeling a bit raw so I withdrew. However her energy and positivity was fantastic - she did more in her short life than most people her regarding donation.

Also - she did it without agenda and had so much compassion with everyone's views.

She was truly amazing. Was Peters story on there for a while? I remember guest stories from different transplants - thought she may have asked him for his?

Thanks for your kind words those who commented.
I didn't want to look as if I hadn't read them.

I lost my daughter, and if I could have given her organs I would have. If I could have kept her by taken an organ, I would have.

This family are wonderful and brave beyond expression.

Rest in peace angel baby. Sadly she will have far too many playmates in heaven.

Their child is dead already. There is no possible harm to their child whatsoever. The only possible casualty in this is their feelings. And they rate their feelings over someone else's life.

Seriously? What warped thinking.

Wannabe - you do raise a difficult issue. And that is why, so far, the system is as it is. Everyone has a right to treatment whatever the circumstances - and that is how it should be.

The problem is when you get people who expect others to do all the difficult stuff and assume that their right to treatment is there not because someone else has made the choice to give but simply because they themselves have the right to it. It is education and attitudes that need to change.

People die - because the treatment is not available. That is something we could all prevent.

I see that this thread must be very, very hard for some people though. I apologise if I have been insensitive.