72 virgins in paradise

[QweenCnut]

Do they really believe this?

Do they think that by murdering innocents they will get their reward? They took my cousin 12 years ago, I will never forget the screams of my aunt.

I hope that the French jihadists rot for eternity.

For those going on about Aisha. I'd never heard of her before this thread so took the advice on the first or second page to Google her. I found this in the Guardian [[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth]] useful and enlightening. It also suggests she wasn't 9 at marriage and points out she had an equal marriage to Mohammed and great respect after his death. Honestly she kicks Mary Magdelene into the dust.

I do wonder how many extremely fundamental Christians are currently able to hide in the army fighting in the Middle East right now.

@skating- am referring specifically to Islamic attacks, in that its scale is unprecedented. Bigger than 9/11, it seems.

I don't normally bring up Aisha directly because Mohammed did what was normal for his time. I have sometimes used it to illustrate that he didn't have a wise and moral god advising him on his behaviour, but it's not fair otherwise to compare him to a modern man.

There has been a tendency in recent years to rewrite history about her age and willingness, but I think that makes it worse as it sounds like modern Muslims are ashamed of his behaviour.

And Christians who mention it are they are on shaky ground. What would we call impregnating a teenage girl without her consent these days? I don't think the person responsible could avoid a custodial sentence or his name on the sexual offences register.

They don't get Martydom, or 72 virgins, if they're killed by a female. Apparently that's part of the reason for female fighters on Kobane

What do female suicide bombers get then? Toy boys?

And they accuse the west if being over sexualized. There's no mention of nookie in heaven in the Bible.

'I agree people are used to too used to horror stories from abroad'

And the system is at breaking point.

'Amnesty International, in its recent report "Left Out In The Cold", highlights that not a single place has been offered for a Syrian refugee in Gulf states, Russia or China.'

'In December the UN launched the biggest humanitarian appeal in its history, asking for more than $16bn to fund its operations worldwide. Seventy per cent of the money was for four countries mired in intractable conflicts: Syria, Iraq, South Sudan and the Central African Republic.

"We don't see an end to this," the UN's humanitarian envoy Valerie Amos told me at the time. "More countries are giving money but, every year, the figures go up substantially."

Never has the world seen so many humanitarian crises all at the same time in such a short period.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30699835

Yep, hell in a handcart : (

As an aside, appreciate that France is our hearest neighbour but still. How much Uk coverage has there been of the slaughter of potentially thousands of Nigerians in recent attack by Islamic extremists? angry
Some lives worth less than others, it seems.

Sad news from Nigeria. I don't think it's anything to do with France being a neighbour, or the value of people's lives, it's to do with people being killed who were doing something you also do every day - it's natural to think 'it could have been me' when the victims are living a lifestyle very similar to yours and I think it's ok for the news coverage to reflect how much people identify with a situation.

Also, all atrocities are shocking and evil, there is no meaning in trying to weigh them up against each other.

Yes kawliga, and Paris is so close to where I live, we go for a weekend away fairly often. Nearer than York, and very familiar.

things not discussed

Seriously hidden

Never mind coverage of attacks on Muslims by Islamic extremists (of which I agree there is very little) - we could do with a bit more coverage of attacks on Muslims by Western govts in the form of drones in Pakistan, Yemen etc. That might even out the balance a bit. When was the last time you saw a news feature about children being bombed in Pakistan? Not because they had targeted a minority group with a horrible cartoon, but just because they were living in a country that is deemed a fair target by the UK/US forces. Yes, that's right, you never saw it. But still, they died.

As for the 72 virgins thing, of course it's ludicrous. Just about as ludicrous as thinking you're going to live forever if you go to church every Sunday and say your prayers at bedtime. Ffs.

When was the last time you saw a news feature about children being bombed in Pakistan? just because they were living in a country that is deemed a fair target by the UK/US forces. Yes, that's right, you never saw it.

These drone attacks are not random across the whole of Pakistan for no reason. They are concentrated in a particular mountainous remote region where the Taliban are concentrated.

Of course the deaths of children and innocent adults are extremely tragic, but what would you do. Shall we just leave the Taliban to get on with it ? Overthrow the government ? Let them get hold of the nuclear warheads, terrorise, kill and enslave ordinary Pakistanis to their particular brand of Islam, allow them to start a nuclear war with India and the West?

The Taliban are despised intensely by the vast majority of Pakistanis, who dread them gaining any further ground. While you hand wring over here, those living over there know that eliminating them is an absolute must. My relatives in Karachi aren't looking out for American drones every time they step out of their house, but they are constantly on the vigil for the bombs, and terrorist attacks from the extremists these drones are trying to eliminate.

Oh and if sympathisers in the ISI, Pakistani army, government bodies and clerics didn't provide support to the Taliban and Pakistan's own troops had properly gone after them, then perhaps the drones would not have and to be employed.

I'm not saying that I have the answers, but it's a little rich to have saturation, 24-hour news coverage and talk of the collapse of civilisation re 12 people being killed when our govts kill far more people and it isn't even reported.

when our govts kill far more people and it isn't even reported

Our governments don't. The muslim on muslim death toll, muslim on non-muslim far eclipses that of us killing them.

And there's loads of atrocities by the Muslim terrorists that are not reported in the West either.

tns.thenews.com.pk/pervez-hoodbhoy-talks-about-zarb-e-azb-and-peshawar-tragedy/#.VLH1MEvSzVs

Nothing changed after Lakki Marwat, when 105 people watching a volleyball match were blown up by a suicide bomber in a pickup truck.

Or when 96 Hazaras in a snooker club were targeted by a double suicide attack.

We’ve practically forgotten the 127 dead in the All Saints Church bombing in Peshawar

or the 90 Ahmadis killed while in prayer.

There have been multiple massacres where people have been ordered off buses, their national identity cards checked, and those with Shia sounding names promptly executed.

Mosques, imambargahs, shrines, temples, and churches across the country have been repeatedly attacked with heavy loss of life.

Consider also the fact that nearly 60 polio workers — women and men who work to save children from a crippling disease — have been killed by the Taliban and associated religious fanatics

Cruikshank, there's so much Islamic terrorism reported in the UK press that is barely noticed because it is so far away. In addition to the Nigerian situation, 2000 or more dead which was discussed earlier (or was it on another thread?) here's more:
www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30288137

Back

Regarding Aisha....I think she should be brought up at every opportunity.

Firstly, for the reason you gave - that, even if it was normal for the time, Allah (and therefore Mohammed) should have known better.

But more importantly....Mohammed was the perfect human being who could do no wrong. Imitation is what every Muslim man should strive for. It is central to the Islamic faith that if Mohammed said it/did it then it's officially sanctioned as acceptable, moral behaviour.

So, yes...marrying a 6 year old and raping her at 9 should be laboured and questioned. As should his campaign of murderous terror. As should the fact that he punched his favourite wife in the chest. And so on.

Usually, someone will say..."Oh, but Aisha reached puberty at 9" - but, actually, there are various passages in the Hadith that indicate that she hadn't yet had her first period - and may not have done until she was 14*

*For the record and not because it matters anyway.

Cruickshank

You can't see a difference between 12 people being targeted and shot in the head because they published some cartoons - and the unavoidable deaths of innocents that occur while trying to protect the lives of others?

I'm merely pointing out that I'm concerned about the over 1,000 deaths of civilians in drone attacks, and wondering if all the world leaders who are going to attend a rally to support the cartoonists who targeted a minority group are also going to attend a rally to support the families, friends, colleagues, neighbours and compatriots of the 1,000+ innocents killed by UK/US strikes. Or indeed the many more thousands killed by Operation Enduring Freedom (can't get much freer than being dead, can you?)

"You can't see a difference between 12 people being targeted and shot in the head because they published some cartoons - and the unavoidable deaths of innocents that occur while trying to protect the lives of others?"

I imagine that the relatives of those who died in Pakistan don't tend to think, "Oh, that's OK, because the US were trying to protect the lives of other people." I imagine that they are as grief-stricken and as angry as the relatives of those murdered in the Charlie Hebdo offices.

cruikshank I'm not a supporter of drone attacks, but do you think they are the same thing?

One of Africa's most senior church leaders has accused the West of ignoring the threat of the militant Islamist group Boko Haram, days after the reported slaughter of up to 2,000 people by the group.

They want the west to use drones, guns and bombs to kill Boko Haram, They are saying we are evil because we don't.

So do you think we should?

the cartoonists who targeted a minority group

Stop right there.

They satirised a belief system, just like they lampooned all other belief systems as well as politicians, celebrities, the far right parties who target muslims and a whole host of subjects.

Don't twist this to be something it wasn't.

It is not Islam it is some fanatical Sunni Moslems misinterpreting the Q'ran.
My son is married to a Turkish Muslim and lives in Turkey. When I met his mil for the first time I was wearing a gold medallion with a representation og Mary on it. Mil touched the medallion and said,"Ah, Mariam, we love her too." There is a RC convent and a shrine to Mary at Mariamana near Ephesus. There are millions of tolerant Muslims just as there are fanatical Christians expecting a reward in Heaven and politically motivated terrorists who seek to justify their murderous extremism through sources outside themselves.
Every time someone makes an excuse to justify killing 'in the name of' then evil has won again. I am afraid.

I imagine that they are as grief-stricken and as angry as the relatives of those murdered in the Charlie Hebdo offices

I imagine they are, just like the families of all the Shias, Christians, Hindus, Ahmadis and other muslims that the Taliban have declared as heretics and who the Taliban have mercilessly killed and tortured in vast vast greater and unprovoked numbers.

You know if the Taliban stopped trying to impose their version of Islam on the rest of the muslims who don't want it, they would stop being targeted.