WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

To inform them all (probably leave Dh out of the round robin) that I do not want to have sex with them unless and until further formal notice from me?

As it seems that there is such confusion among so many people about the nature of consent I want to avoid putting any of them in the terribly awkward position of wondering whether simply being in the same room as them means they are invited to stick their dick in me.
So is that an unreasonable proposition?

You are right Gallic the number of posts on MN where the victim herself isn't sure what happened to her was rape show that. What consent is does need to be spelt out to everyone.

I'm just getting so frustrated by the claims of some that consent is such a hard concept to grasp, and that the OP's premise is somehow insulting to all men, when it's actually addressing an important issue. There have been a few depressing threads in a similar vein on MN recently (good job I'm at work this pm and will have to stop reading them!)

Can a woman give "enthusiastic consent" to a man who just walked in to a hotel room who is clearly friends with a person she is now in a very vulnerable position with?

She certainly didn't give enthusiastic consent to be secretly filmed. LEt's not pretend Ched ever had anything like "enthusiastic consent".

briefly logging in to read.
I am so encouraged by some of the eloquent posts on MN. Buffy Mama* Gallic mothership yonic cow etc.
but God! so frustrated at this being an opportunity to reinforce patriarchy.
And as it's not, on the whole, the women who are in charge I do find it utterly depressing reading.
At least I am not alone and I know there are women who can argue the bloody obvious point better than I.

notauniquename "The third issue is the most violent rape, such as the people lurking in a bush, or perpetrators of war crimes. (where rape is used as a weapon of control)"

The most violent rape?? This 'grading' of rapes is another disturbing access of the rape culture we live in. How is this type of rape any more violent than being repeatedly violated by your own father, your own brother, someone else you loved and trusted, in the "comfort" of your own home?

It's so bloody depressing that every internet thread on feminism ends up a 'but what about men?' discussion

I can't recall the last time I saw a man just reach out and grab a woman, (maybe it happens so often I'm blind to it)

You might be, notauniquename

I can recall the last time a woman reached out and grabbed my bum. (Ironically enough it was on Friday, when I went out after posting on this thread.)

That's not irony, that's a coincidence. I trust you told her that her boorish attentions were unwelcome.

People who grab your bum in crowded public spaces are annoying but come low on my list of threat.

Perhaps you don't realise that because, as a man, you don't have to constantly do risk assessments such as: 'Has this person humiliated me in public? vs Is this person going to seriously hurt me and is in a position to do so because we are alone?'.

It's so bloody depressing that every internet thread on feminism ends up a 'but what about men?' discussion
yes it is bloody depressing.
I personally think it comes from a fear of losing the control that men are used to.

and yy limitedperiod

TheFriar - I agree with your post @ 11.59. It took a generation to get most people to stop drink driving and to get society as a whole to agree it was utterly unacceptable. Same with seatbelts. I remember really graphic TV adverts in the 1970s showing people with smashed up faces who had not worn seatbelts.

A concerted campaign to change the mindset about rape and what rape actually is in a really graphic and shocking way is what we need. The real impact of rape on a woman who went out for a night out. Not a woman who was raped by a stranger jumping out of a bush but a 'nice' man in a suit who bought her a drink and danced with her and offered to see her home and that she asked in for a coffee.

MothershipG - "Hence why all the education in the the world aimed at rapists will not make one jot of difference, the only difference that will help is when women are believed.

We believe you - needs to be the societal norm not just a MN campaign."

I think we can get there but it absolutely has to be a concerted, graphic and deeply shocking public campaign over years. We need to get police, CPS, jury members and everybody in society to come to this with a mindset that is different from now.

I really think that leaving education about rape to a few lessons ion secondary school is crazy.
You want people to change their mind set? You want the society to change how they view rape?

Then make it obvious! Say it loud and clear! Make some campains and tell men that what they had slept with that nioce woman who could hardly stand up they raped her. That they ARE rapists.

Of course, this will be inconfortable for those men (the 1 in 20 of them). Just as it was really hard to see so graphic images fopr people who were involved in a carcrash, tjose who lost a love one duer to drink driving and for those who were at the wheel and caused these accidents.
Yes I'm sure it will be hard.

But how hard is it for the women who have been raped?

Buffy of course, they will be defensive. Who wouldn't be?
The issue is that the rest of the people --men- who haven't raped need to also see it is rape and stop supporting 'those poor souls'.
And that will not happen until these 19 men out of 20 accept too that having sex with a woman wo full consent isn't acceptable.

Imo these are the people that education should be aimed at. (and children/teenagers too of course)

The most violent rape?? This 'grading' of rapes is another disturbing access of the rape culture we live in. How is this type of rape any more violent than being repeatedly violated by your own father, your own brother, someone else you loved and trusted, in the "comfort" of your own home?
I didn't mean to grade severity of rape.
I shall attempt to refrain from doing this in future.
saying stereotypical, or popular culture myth, or the crimewatch reimagined I though was degrading also. I was trying to express a concept, not grade severity of rape. obviously it was done badly.

TheRealAmanda - I've been trying to imagine what some of the more obtuse posters on this thread would have made of Swift's "Modest Proposal".

"How very dare you? My Nigel's Irish and I can assure you that never in a million years would he even think of eating one of the DC."

"So you think it's funny making jokes about eating children..."

"Huh, bet you think you're all that as a cook! Trust me, no one would want to eat your child stew! You're just not good enough with the condiments..."

Some people really don't get the point of satire, do they?

"Then make it obvious! Say it loud and clear! Make some campains and tell men that what they had slept with that nioce woman who could hardly stand up they raped her. That they ARE rapists"

Many women are doing just that. You know what happens to many of them though? They get threatened with rape and other violence, men get defensive and refuse to listen because it's not being said in the precise yet elusive way they think women should be talking about it, there's a whole shed load of whataboutery... I could go on

It is not for want of women trying I can assure you

I'd add that as many, if not more women get angry about it on behalf of their husbands and sons PetulaGordino.

They were prominent at the beginning of this thread but have dropped out.

I find them more disturbing than the men on this thread. I expect some men to articulate outrage on this kind of thread.

I worry about the attitudes of women - particularly when the husbands or sons they defend might not have even taken offence.

Those women don't threaten rape or violence. They just sneer that you're giving yourself airs about their precious menfolk and closet themselves in their little bubble.

i don't know limited. i agree that some comments are disturbing and horrible and totally lacking in insight, but if women are going to live with men (as our society tells us is the right and proper way) then we are going to defend those men to the hilt because what is the alternative?

Defensive processing sounds like an interesting concept. Does it present online as very long winded posts that are technically logical in a bizarre way?

I wasn't thinking about women as a group defending these ideas bi was thinking about society (the government, a charitable but well known and accepted group etc) doing a campaign like this.

Any time that there has been a profound change such as drink driving or smoking, it has been driven by the government. Because, let's be honest, anyone se would have got the reaction you describe.
And yes both men and women would scream about it.
Men because they roukdnt accept to be told they can easily slip into being a rapist. Women because the idea that your own DH, your son, your very good friend atecrapists isn't an idea that you would easily accept either.
I know for a start that when I told DH 1 in20 men is a rapist therefore we all know one, he looked at as if I was crazy. Rapists are these weird and dangerous people that attack people in the street. Or the sick individual that raped a family member/friend and spiked their glass. Not the nice guy next door. And -that is very hard to comprehend gut both men and women (all down to this mythology that take happens in dark alleyways, nit at home or with an acquaintance).

Now if this isn't coming from these high instances, then yes we need another way. But bar educating our own dcs in the hope that I. Itself will make enough difference, I'm not sure what censor we can do.

Or maybe what we need is strong lobbying to that change us seen as a rely good thing By politicians or maybe as bringing them votes so they are happy to force the change??

Like "THINK! Consent" instead of "THINK! Bike"?

Imagine if OP did actually send all those letters, and subsequently was raped. Even if she showed the letter to the police, in court (if it got that far), her rapist would probably claim that she consented to sex with him. And in something like 95% of cases, his version of events would prevail and he'd walk free.

I agree that the letter would make no difference in a court case. In any scenario where a woman is sufficiently conscious to be capable of consent, what is (believed by the court to have been) communicated at the time will (and should) override anything communicated earlier.

My previous post was an attempt to make people understand this by thinking about the disastrous implications if a earlier letter of consent were given more weight than what was communicated at the time.

Let me re-iterate, as no-one seems to have understood my last post. I don't think a letter granting consent in the future can carry any weight, for precisely the same reason that a letter of non-consent wouldn't.

A letter might matter if there was no communication at the time. I'm assuming that is an extremely rare scenario.

Maybe they would just recognise that I was not consenting and would, therefore, leave me alone should I be found (for example) incapacitated in the corner at a party ????????

Gah. The letter idea is a thought experiment; a satirical device to explore the concept of assumed consent/availability. Perhaps you need to change your name, Theoretician