WIBU to consider writing to every man in the world

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

To inform them all (probably leave Dh out of the round robin) that I do not want to have sex with them unless and until further formal notice from me?

As it seems that there is such confusion among so many people about the nature of consent I want to avoid putting any of them in the terribly awkward position of wondering whether simply being in the same room as them means they are invited to stick their dick in me.
So is that an unreasonable proposition?

that's not a massive disparity.
[confused I didn't say it was?

Men need access to female spaces?
Does what women need matter at all?
Exactly. The fact that women wouldn't feel able to attend and would be unlikely to get much benefit from a group with men in it is apparent irrelevant...
It doesn't have to be at the same time.

Just the same as village halls all over the country are used for both bingo and zumba, but not at the same time.

(I can obviously see how a woman who had just been raped by a man may feel like she doesn't want to sit in a group with a man, and that her understanding and compassion towards said man might be lacking after what had happened to her at the hands of a man. just the same as actually in the same situation a man who has just been raped might not want to sit in a group full of women feeling that they are judging him based on his gender given a horrific incident in their lives).

(I really didn't think I'd need to point that out)

It certainly could be argued that notauniquename was being somewhat disingenuous

men should have and do need access to traditionally feminist spaces (such as meetings for survivors of rape.)

Are you serious? Women's organisations to help survivors of rape and male violence were set up by volunteers and many / most offer peer counselling. Why on earth should men have access to these spaces?

Men oppress women notauniquename. The oppressed are perfectly entitled to tell their oppressors how they should behave towards them. How is oppression supposed to stop otherwise?

Obviously we have to tell men in a thousand different ways so they understand and listen. Because we may not be doing it right

We are asking men to treat us with respect, listen to our experiences, help combat other men. How is that the same as men raping women, controlling them through violence and gender stereotypes, talking over them, dismissing their experiences etc etc etc.

That isn't what you said. Your statement was that men need access to female only spaces.

men should have and do need access to traditionally feminist spaces (such as meetings for survivors of rape.)

Umm, no, I didn't say that. you'd only have to look 1 page back to see that! and so no I wasn't being disingenuous.)

Rape survivor meetings are traditionally feminist spaces.
(because traditionally, as evidenced by a lot of people supporting Ched Evans, general society (patriarchy), and the feeling that women get spoken down to on this space (told they weren't wearing the right clothes etc) -men (traditionally) don't care about rape victims, and would not set up safe spaces. (e.g Patriarchists don't care about rape victims, the spaces are largely set-up and supported by feminists) - that is different from talking about female spaces. (I don't need or want access to the Ladies toilets, I don't feel left out that I can't go in ladies changing rooms) why would I feel I should be able to impinge on equally private spaces? (answer: I don't)

(what you did there (both changing my words, and then providing support saying that I was disingenuous) was near text book gas lighting)

So when 'men and women working together' loses my support is when it turns into 'women must always acknowledge men's suffering when they talk about violence against themselves;
I didn't say that either (but I can at least see how I was misunderstood), My words were specifically in response to the article (posted 4 or 5 pages back) that men were told to read and understand. an article that said that men invent male suffering, that domestic violence is a thing that men do to women and children. and that men should just stay out of feminists places. (despite there being evidence that a lot of that article is plain bollocks.)

I'm not saying that women Must acknowledge the suffering of men,
I'm not saying that women must not ignore the suffering of men.
I'm not saying that women Should prioritise the suffering of men before their own, (nor that the same should happen visa versa)

What I am saying is that posting that particular article and telling men to read and learn how they make belief that domestic violence is about as simplistic and offensive as telling someone that they were raped because their skirt wasn't long enough.

Are you serious? Women's organisations to help survivors of rape and male violence were set up by volunteers and many / most offer peer counselling. Why on earth should men have access to these spaces?
The long and the short is it is because more than one in ten rapes are carried out on men.

men do get raped to.

I'm not and have not been saying that men and women should all sit down in the same little circle and talk to each other, in fact I've only said that men should perhaps be allowed to go into a space after all the women have left and talk to the same trained professionals about their experiences of being raped.

not be told that men are inventing violence against them (which is what that article said.)

(I've tried to clarify that many times now.)

If you weren't being disingenuous, then in that case you need to make your posts clearer, because your meaning is not always obvious, in my humble opinion

in fact I've only said that men should perhaps be allowed to go into a space after all the women have left and talk to the same trained professionals about their experiences of being raped.

Do you think there are special buildings that are "feminist spaces"? What are you actually talking about? If you mean refuges, obviously men should not be in there at all.

Why should men speak to the same trained professionals? This is weird. Wouldn't it be better to speak to a counsellor who wanted to and was able to counsel male victims of male rape? It would be a very different counselling experience.

It's almost as if you care more about some perceived unfairness and would rather disrupt women's services than find a good solution to the problem caused by men raping each other.

Nota, can you see how "men should have access to traditionally feminist spaces" sounds like "men should have access to female spaces campaigned for by feminists"?

I accept that was not your meaning now that you have clarified, but it's going pretty far to suggest that the misunderstanding was gas lighting.

I am sorry for your experiences.

Is anyone stopping men from organizing these spaces? Isn't that what MRAs are meant to be doing?

Rape Crisis support for men and boys. HTH.

micksy actually I think you're right. Sending a letter to all men isn't going to work.
I roils suggest to send it only to the men you know, your husband, your dad, your cousins, your friends as most rapes are done by people you know.
That way you can target the right people, be much more efficient and avoid upsetting people unnecessarily.

Or we could go the same way that with drink driving. Lots of very upset adverts of people being very badly hurt, showing the impact of the victim and reminding men that they have to ask for consent, just as they ask who is driving.

We CAN make rape unacceptable in our society. Just as we have made drink driving unacceptable. Or for women to drink in pregnant (another campaign that is aim at only ONE group of people btw). Or smoking.

What do you think the solution to that problem is, notauniquename?

I suppose there are three problems here, or three issues that can't be addressed by some sort of one size fits all approach:

number one, it's basically the "it's all a mistake I thought we were having fun" problem.
This problem is largely summed up by the following quotes taken from this thread:
I am so angry about this. The fact that rape still exists and men don't want to treat women as human beings is because we don't use the right terminology. Or the right video. Not because men don't care or don't want to listen.

The problem isn't men's knowledge, it's rape culture

But rapists don't give a shit about consent. CE demonstrates that to perfection.

I believe that all these points are linked.
To have a "rape culture" there has to have been some failing in education/upbringing of people in society. To have what apparently is thousands of people CE Supporters not understanding that if you're drunk then you can't give consent (no matter how enthusiastic you appeared to be before passing out so unconscious that your rapist asks hotel staff to look after you) is clearly a huge educational issue.
I think that they (the supporters, and probably even CE himself) would probably all heard and understand that "no means no".

Does he really just not give a shit? his point of view (story) is that she enthusiastically consented.
The courts and jury's point of view is that she was too drunk to consent.

We shouldn't be in a society where people have to sob because they didn't say no.
We should be in a society where people demand justice and are supported because they didn't (or couldn't) say yes.

I think this is an education issue, and the issue is what this thread addresses, how consent may be granted or not, I think that the lessons/message need to be more direct. (most of us men are fairly simple and cryptic messages aren't going to get through!)
no means no, left the gap for there not to be a no, it left the gap for there not to be a consenting yes (where drink of drugs are affecting the situation.) that message left space for no news is good news to creep in.
Basically, that message whilst clever and memorable apparently was too confusing for some.

So a more direct, "only yes means yes. People can only say yes when they aren't drunk or otherwise incapacitated or coerced."
It's short, it doesn't need caveats, it doesn't need explaining.
I think that really simple two line message would make a lot of the Ched Evans supporters actually think about what they are saying.
(It's all a mistake and I thought we were having fun is a crap excuse anyway, you should really know if the person you're having sex with is having fun).

the second issue,
Is the much more complex, but much more frequent family rape issue.
it's the fathers/brothers/uncles/grandparents offending against sisters, daughters, wives and mothers.

"speak out and believe those who speak out" is the only way to deal with this. victims need to feel that they can speak out. that the police or friends or family will support them. not feel that they will be marginalised, disbelieved, ridiculed doubted and left for it to happen again.

The third issue is the most violent rape, such as the people lurking in a bush, or perpetrators of war crimes. (where rape is used as a weapon of control)
for this I recommend the death penalty. (otherwise known as I just have no idea, I can't comprehend the kind of mind that would do that, I've no idea how to deal with it, and don't want to live alongside the people that would do it.)
(note Ched Evans may fit into the evil bastard category rather than the too stupid to understand consent category, I'm not sure.)

(as evidenced by the last time I contributed to this thread, and this mornings contribution, I'm not the most eloquent of people, so I just hope that this comes across in the right way.)

I've been reading and re-reading this before I posted this, and it occurs to me that maybe I'm wrong, perhaps the third "evil bastard" case only exists.
the first case is only the poor excuse. (though at least education could take away a poor excuse for rape?) (the second case is clearly evil, but as I said needs a distinct approach of stance of belief. often times speaking out means breaking up or leaving a family so it's not easy.)

Since there is a lot of funding and several top-notch services for male victims of sexual violence, I don't believe you think there isn't, Nota. You know how to google.

Also, I don't believe you thought "women's spaces" means literal physical spaces. We can't all have failed to notice Temples Of Women or somesuch all over the country. And any group can organise a get-together, there's no law against it.

xposted. I'll catch up later.

That's a decent summary imo, Nota.

1. "Only yes means yes" - This is what Amanda's imaginary letter's about.

1. "Speak out and believe those who speak out" - Again, yes.

1. There always will be random evil bastards, regrettably. They are relatively few. Although, if 10% are sociopaths and 1 of them is a psychopath, the risk is always present.

1. 'Military rape' is being tackled on an international scale. It's not an occurrence of [3] so much as organised and, often, mandated.

The problem is not that rapists don't know what they are doing is rape/wrong, it's that they know they can get away with it because all they have to suggest is that they had a reasonable belief of consent.

The victim has to convince; police, CPS, jury, society... in the face of rape culture, which has us all painted as liers waiting for the opportunity to falsely accuse a man and in a default position of consent, that that wasn't the case and it's usually her word against his.

Hence the OP's excellent OP. Hence why all the education in the the world aimed at rapists will not make one jot of difference, the only difference that will help is when women are believed.

We believe you - needs to be the societal norm not just a MN campaign.

Mothers, I do believe informed awareness - and the ensuant erosion of rape culture - will make a massive difference to the preponderance of rape. An awful lot of rapists don't think of it as rape, and their victims aren't sure. "Default consent" is largely to blame for this. Better awareness would also help the many who are raped by friends & family members. Take the shame away from the victim, and the whole dynamic changes.

It's almost unbearable to think that a PP's pupils are shocked to hear sex is supposed to be fun for women!
Rape culture says women are in a state of availability, and men do sex to them. The message is totally at odds with the realities of good sex.