to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

[adsy]

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

Oh I am glad you are leaving Miranda,

and please take away those falsehoods presented as "education" with you as well.

A gentle tapping...indeed

And not on the face. So it's all o.k.

Why leave miranda when you are doing such a good job defending islam. A tap indeed.

MirandaSings26 : the response to your stupidity is silence.

Its like talking to my mother, but at least she truly does have the excuse of a limited education in Pakistan.

It is sexist to the core, unbalanced and a set of rules only appropriate to life in deserts over 1000 years ago. However those who are moderate and who do not prevent Western liberals living their lives and expressing their views of course are welcome here. However those who kill and seek to stop freedom of expression and do not allow us to mock their religion and the like need to be curtailed.

Whilst we all know the points on Miranda's list those rules which were fine to help women in deserts a thousand years ago are utterly unfair and unreasonable in today's world which is why thankfully more and more people are ceasing to practise religions of this kind. Even just taking the 4 wives point - the principle was very good for women- woman as chattel owned by a man and handed by her father to her husband is protected 1000 years ago by that rule - man takes new wife but does not necessarily divorce the first and he keeps and protects the first - all very jolly and kind and you can see why a fake prophet supposedly acting under the will of a God who does not exist might set out that rule but it is totally inappropriate today. Why can't I have 4 husbands if the men can have 4 wives?

I am loving how Miranda feels that what she has been told by other people is more real than someone who had experienced it first hand. That ignorance is shocking!

Well done MistressMia for being able to live the life you want to, not one dictated for you, your clearly a strong woman.

I think the positivety of the Je suis Charlie and the solidarity cartoons are incredible.

All this "we will never give in in the West". When British workers are beheaded abroad and there's a bit of posturing and shouting and tough speeches from the governement about it and then...nothing. The west is shit scared.

Its a sad day when some edicts of a religion actually condone killing someone for offending you.

Sorry I can't be bothered with the ins & outs pov about all this... I know these murderers aren't representative of all Muslims by any means..but its just becoming far too often that this religion is at the forefront of murders committed in its name...Muslim leaders who are supposedly against this sort of thing need to get up, open their mouths and condemn visibly and publicly - not just among themselves, if indeed they do condemn.

*A Muslim man can tap his wife to correct her using a tooth stick, and it cannot leave a mark or hurt her in any way and cannot be in a place like the face. The word 'beat' in English translations of the Quran means 'tap' in Arabic. This is a common mistake regarding the languages, and yes I do speak and understand some Arabic due to my upbringing so am familiar with grammatical literary mistranslations.

The issue of two women vs one man with regards to testimony is not a law or command but an event that the Quran tells of. Modern scholars confirm this.

Women inherit less than men because what men inherit they are bound by law to spend on their family for their financial upkeep. Women don't have this burden and can keep their share to do with as they wish. Friends have told me that under Islamic law a woman's salary is her own and nobody including her husband has any right to it. He alone shoulders rent, food shopping and clothing/all bills.*

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your vision of what represents "equality" for the sexes.

Condemnations won't make Islamic terrorism go away. They are just platitudes and pointless.

The reason why I post on these threads is not because I am 'angry about my upbringing' (which for the record was pretty liberal by muslim standards), it is because I want to highlight that there is a problem within the core texts of Islam.

A problem that non-muslims may not be aware of, because they only ever get the muslim edited largely fictitious version of Islam. A problem that most muslims are unaware of as they've never really studied their religion. A problem that those who have, such as the muslim posters on this thread, refuse to recognise let alone accept.

To defeat Islamic terrorism we have to undermine Islam itself. Satire is one way, but actually is too subtle. I hope we now have historians and critics across the board making and writing factual articles about Islam, Mohammed and Islamic history.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is still available on 4OD
Islam - The Untold Story by Tom Holland www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story/on-demand/50829-001

ofa for our leader and mistresses mia deputy.

Let's go with the ticket that all religions are about power and control of their followers and all are mysogynistic and ludicrous in equal measures.

Mistress, you say: Muslim leaders who are supposedly against this sort of thing need to get up, open their mouths and condemn visibly and publicly

Then in your next post you decide that Condemnations won't make Islamic terrorism go away. They are just platitudes and pointless.

One minute you decide muslim women are oppressed, then the next minute you decide they are too stupid. One minute you decide muslims must condemn then the next minute you decide it is pointless. None of your arguments are coherent and are mainly there to vilify. Much of what you say are platitudes too.

As for your upbringing, I don't believe it was too liberal at all as most Pakistani liberals don't need to ask their dad's three maulvi mates for answers. They can research for themselves using more robust sources rather than 'that must be trues cos my dad's three maulvi mates say so!'

You are most certainly not coming across as liberal - a wannabe maybe, you fool only those who know very little about Islam and you are applauded by a bunch of ignorant people who view your sources and statements as authentic and non biased, who cannot be bothered to look deeper at the sources. Looking at what you do say about muslim women especially you know very very little about Islam.

Nothing you say is backed up with sound reasoning, just your own EDL like agenda. Your statements above are very telling indeed.

Slowglow

MistressMia can speak wonderfully well for herself, but in the meantime....

There is no contradiction in saying that condemnation should take place, but acknowledging that it will make little discernible difference all by itself.

Where does she say Muslim women are "too stupid"? And, erm, stupid is not the opposite of oppressed, so even if she did say that, again, there's no contradiction.

And who cares if she's coming across as liberal or not? She's certainly coming across as enlightened and with enough reasoning ability to throw off the shackles of the religion that might otherwise have infested her whole life.

And, for what it's worth...the tone of YOUR post is quite suggestive, if not "telling". Muslims hate ex-Muslims, right?

Ex-Muslims are hated by some Muslims...to clarify. Which is why some former Muslims have to have armed bodyguards when they speak in public?

Oh and another point I'd like to make....Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins.

Sam Harris largely criticises Islam - wrote a whole book about it.

Richard Dawkins largely criticises Christianity.

Guess which one of them has to keep the names and ages of their children secret, along with the name of their home town/state?

To be fair religions in general attract those who feel the need to be told what to do and what to think.

Some just take it to extremes. All religions have their unpleasent ranting nutters.

Slowglow criticising Islam doesn't really make one an EDL supporter does it?

Trying to shut down debate on religions and practises other people find abhorrent, mysogynistic and ridiculous, by playing the racist card is long long gone.

And criticising Islam or Judaism or Christianity isn't racist. Religions are not race. They are a life style choice.

I, too, sense a turning point. The events in Paris seem to have triggered something in the collective consciousness in Europe (and particularly Britain), that is completely counter to the last two decades' liberal-guilty hand-wringing. It's as if people have finally realised that they don't have to feel guilty about European values, but actually proud, and it's as if there's a realisation that cultural relativity is nonsense; that some values are genuinely superior to others.

If this continues, the likely progression is a far greater insistence that immigrant communities in Britain do much more to assimilate. If it's widely accepted that some of our values are inviolable, then surely the multicultural fiction of allowing (encouraging) cultural ghettoisation will have to end?

Somehow this attack just feels so much worse than the others. I guess because it is literally an attack on free speech and creativity, the core values of enlightenment.

Yy this was a totally direct attack on free speech.

Western culture is about offending/ piss taking and examining challenging those in Power either in religions or politics.

We cannot let that go.

I'm just frustrated at the fact that moderates don't seem to want to challenge the use of the Quran. Saying extremists are 'not real muslims' isn't helping and just shuts down dialogue. There needs to be strong theological discussion.

The problem is that over the last few centuries the West has painstakingly moved away from the idea that violence can and should be used to change things. It has been drummed into the Western psyche that violence is wrong and that people who change things through violence are bullies and that only intellectual discourse and analysis can and should be used to change things.

All the intellectuals and liberals are now in a quandary. How do you maintain the pretence that the values of liberalism, tolerance and equality should be protected and held in reverence when these very values are so quickly and easily extinguished by violence or the threat of violence.

So, the chipping away of these values will get stronger and stronger until the West itself has to turn it's back on these values that it has so painstakingly fought for. I don't see a way that we can say we still have freedom of expression/freedom of creativity etc yet at the same time live without fear of offence. The fact that nobody will now reprint the original cartoons (and probably in the future people will be more wary about what they say about Islam) just shows that actually violence and intimidation trump enlightenment values when push comes to shove and capitulation to violence is very quick and easy (which emboldens these right wing fascists even more). This is what is really scary. Apparently might is right.

Well I'm not afraid to take the rip

Going back to the OP, I think it will be more difficult as there will be more moves to push through more anti-terror laws and much more scrutiny of communities associated with Islam.

that wouldn't be a bad thing, surely breakingdad?

Indeed ADSY, for me it will make no difference to my general life, and again tying it back to my original statements if moderates don't step up and challenge they will bear the brunt of it.