to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

[adsy]

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

Yes I think one thing to come out of this appalling incident is that people now feel more able to openly criticise Islam and this opens up wider, long overdue, debate about immigration and integration. We have now seen the terrible consequences of adopting the ostrich position.
Fewer Guardian reader-types are crying racism - probably because the victims formed the same demographic as those who would have previously hand-wrung. Ie they could identify with them. Free speech is very dear to liberals and this attack has resonated with people. Critics cannot be silenced now because the attack has reinforced the need for open debate about how this could happen and why.

"Fewer guardian reader types are crying racism".

That's because any attempt to defend more moderate Muslims on here, who condemn the attacks, is met with accusations of apologism for terrorists and a wall of flaming. So what's the point.

IMO it's sad to read people lime you using these terror attacks to justify your right wing UKIP position but not prepared to get into it after watching everyone line up to bully Miranda.

And yes I condemn the attacks as much as the rest of you.

Adsy your post about islam being a "religion of nutters" was beyond the pale.

It's sad this incident has made people like you feel justified in your sweeping generalisations. Indeed you couldNT wait to start this thread and have a good old Muslim bashing.

Am off out so don't bother flaming me. Am genuinely hiding the thread. Someone had to say this though.

fanjo
I agree wholeheartly with your posts. I have given up with this thread, it was clearly only ever started to have a go not to have a debate.

I have consistently said ont he thread most UK muslims are moderates (although it is a pity many of their moderate parents have children covering up and being more radical - a weird backwards step change sadly but hopefully just a blip). That does not mean I don't think even moderates and those in many other religions have sexist homophobic rules and are deluded in thinking there is a God and I am happy I have freedom to write that.

Very few people on this or the first thread have bashed anyone. However if anyone is hurt because their religion or atheism is criticise or we draw their Prophet they need to have therapy or just a quiet cry or grow a thicker skin or go to a country where censorship is stronger rather than try to stop people writing.

I was continuing the thread.
And I will stand by my right to think that anyone who lives their life according to an imaginary best friend is a nutter.
I also said all religious people were nutters so not quite sure why that's beyond the pale?

Yes, we atheists are pretty reasonable people. I have a very similar view of scientologists and their thetans and virgin births and Jewish women in Stamford Hill covering their hair and all the rest.

The press freedom issue is fascinating. To what extent are you allowed to say things that make someone upset and in what context?
If I invented a religion tomorrow which said no one should ever take photos of my followers in the street and then I saw a photos of my followers should I be able to stop those photos? I would hope not as they were taken in public. The Government at the moment is introducing yet more press control laws to prevent people paying to download films of consenting adults because it has decided certain images meet Downing Street views on what is normal sex presumably. Obviously we can show a lot more in the UK than in most muslim countries but we still need to fight against censorship in the UK.

Hmm I see someone had a post deleted. What's it like to report a post? Only I have never done it and I have been called lots worse. I'm a man so I am by default a rapist, pervert, violent, nationalistic, brute who invented slavery and misogyny :)

Anyway, regardless of how you say it all religions ARE irrational - unless you're the guy who invented it to gain control. As I've said many times the members of a religion are also usually victims of that religion. Caught when young and vulnerable. Taught by people they should have been able to trust (who in their turn were often victims) they had no chance to see if for what it was.

That should make it more understandable, but doesn't excuse it entirely. It's up to every adult to examine their own behaviour and decide if it is correct and if there is a better way. If we didn't do that we'd still be hiding from the thunder.

Religion teaches people to do odd and sometimes nasty things, but worse still it teaches them a method of deciding what is sensible and good. A combination of what the holy book says, what the priest says and what urges come into your head if you scrunch your eyes closed and press your hands together (or tap your forehead on the floor, or bob rapidly from the waist or dance in a circle stamping your feet to a drumbeat)

The main religions emphasis not thinking. Faith is a virtue. Thinking is doubting and if you feel the urge to doubt you must perform some repetitive motions and/or chants until the urge to think goes away.

Islam is not a very moderate religion at all. It literally means oppression and i have studied all 6 world teligions and theology. Islam is the youngest and most militant and i agree this attack has made people open their eyes and realise we can critisise what is a threat to us at this current moment in time. Shariah law is brutal and demeaning and is sadly what muslims believe, no one is saying all muslims are evil. But we are aloud to critisise a religion that thinks its better than everyone else, hence why its the only one do far thats been off limits discussion wise, those screaming that this is bullying and not a debate need to grow ip and realise they are part of the problem with the attack on free speech.

Agree with fanjo. Its sad to see posters using this tragedy to bash religion and quash any meaningful debate.

This is our chance to discuss these matters openly and hear both sides. But a few these threads now have degenerated to attacking posters, propogating right wing agendas and stifling debate.

Abuse towards other religions or beliefs is not freedom of speech in my opinion. Surely the last thing we want is for moderate muslims to become attacked and alienated. It is these muslims who need to be helping us eradicate extremists. We cant do it on our own, clearly.

Why is thisnot a debate? Because you disagree with other peoples opinions? That is the exact definition of a debate, two opposing opinions. Why can we critisise christianity but no other religion? As previously said its a life choice for most the rest are forced into it for fear of death.

Fanjo - miranda was supporting 'light' domestic abuse and got rightly roasted, thats not bullying.

BackOnlyBriefly

A very succinct view of religions there. Personally I have always regarded religions as a crutch for people who are scared by life. It's not easy having to make choices is it ? Much easier to devolve them to a "god", or "gods".

In my first year at Uni I lived with a lapsed Catholic, and we never spoke about religion. However, his brother, who occasionally stayed a weekend was a devout churchgoing. Add to that another housemate who was a devout Muslim (one of the reasons I loved going to Uni - diversity) and there were some intense fireside chats. My grumble - it's always been - is that you don't need someone else to tell you right from wrong. and if you do, it should be your fellow man, not a sky fairy.

Funnily enough, my Muslim housemate had some sort of personal crisis halfway through the year (I suspect romantic). He wanted to go out and get drunk and asked my advice on what would be best (possibly colouring your perception of my time at Uni ), and was surprised (I was always a vocal atheist) when I reminded him of his faith ... I'm sure you could crowbar that into a weepy moment in a bromance somewhere . I can't recall exactly what I said, but it would have been something like "just because I don't believe, isn't reason not to accept that you believe" or something like that.

It's perfectly ok to bash religions!

I think all religions are ridiculous control mechanisms which are inevitably mysogynistic.

How does that make me a right wing UKIP supporter or a racist?

Race is race. Religion crosses all races and is a life style choice.

There are no radical/ mainstream Muslims/Christians/Jews etc. that's nonsensical.

There are murderers and criminals and then the rest of society.

Absolutely fuck all to do with race or religion.

As for fanjos post about bullying miranda. I think you will find it was the other way round and she was in fact bullying snd belittling mias own experiences based on heresay

fanjo amazed you think it's ok to give your wife a light tap? I am guessing you missed that post by miranda as none of your past posts show you as an abuse apologise.

Yes I of course don't condone that. But I did see people laying into her from almost her first post, before she said that.

Am not getting into this though. I said my piece

Sorry but religion is for nutters in my view. You live your life by books written by of course men thousands of years ago!

If an adult belived in Father Christmas you would assume nuttiness was present:

fanjo it sounds like you cant handle a debate, your not getting into what? A discussion because you can't bear to hear anyone with a different opinion to your own? Your lucky you like in a democracy that allows you to be on this forum expressing your views, many are not so lucky.

It's not Nice to accuse people of supporting UKIP either or being racist. Its fairly personal.

But hey as long as religious people arnt offended that's fine

Bollocks to that.

So we can slag off ukip supporters but not islam? Very definition of censorship.

Well I'm sure you will get over it. If you haven't said anything pro UKIP or racist then I didn't mean you.

Am not getting into it cos I can't be arsed arguing with people online today. Or ever. But said what I wanted to say. Now I will rehide thread. FWIW I didn't mean you theboody

Also as a catholic it doesnt bother me if people think im a nutter i may well be, i did laugh my ass off at that cartoon of jesus though very funny