to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

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The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

The one to alarabiya

Miranda so what if someone on the bus hated you or thought you should go back to where you came from. The difference is that they won't kill you because overall this is a tolerant country. If anyone doesn't feel comfortable here they can leave.

MrsGosling I'm just making the point that normal members of society are going to feel the full wrath of what's happened due to the actions of the terrorists and hate inciting threads such as this one.

who's inciting hatred?

sloglow

Guess the Al-Azhar scholars are also ignorant of Islam as are all those Islamic countries whose Ulema have succeeded in having the death penalty for apostasy incorporated into their Penal codes.

Re: Murdered Egyptian Muslim “apostate,” Farag Foda (1945-1992)

Indicating how high and how far fundamentalists have risen within the state apparatus, those accused of killing Mr. Foda were defended in court by Sheik Ahmad Ghazali, one of Egypt's most senior theologians. Sheik Ghazali is a senior official of Al Azhar university and thus a Government employee.

Sheik Ghazali testified in court that Mr. Foda and "secularists" like him are apostates who should be put to death by the Government. He added that if the Government failed to carry out that "duty," individuals were free to do so.
www.nytimes.com/1994/02/03/world/fundamentalists-impose-culture-on-egypt.html?scp=1&sq=Farag%20Foda&st=cse

MirandaSings26 To be honest, I am not too troubled by the 'feeling' of insecurity some will have after what happened. Shame, but what can you do?

No, I am really concerned by the direct threat to the fabric of what modern Europe is: freedom of expression, cultural heritage of humanism, feminist progress.
We are the guardians of this, and we are not doing a very good job protecting it. We are setting up our children to have to fight hard a long because we are afraid to make a stand now, and it is a cowardly as it is selfish.

I prefer to be concerned by the future of my lifestyle, hard earned by our forefathers and mothers, rather by some 'feelings'.

Pakistan is an artificial creation caused by partition 1947 due to agitation from the Muslim League who wanted their own 'Land of the Pure' and thought nothing of partitioning a centuries old country and causing massive blood shed in order to fulfil their supremacists and separatists aims.

Like many young countries its been subject to dictatorial and military leadership rather than stable democracy. Oh but all the issues are down to religion? The decline in its minority population from 23% at Partition to 3% now definitely is. See again earlier posts about Assia Bibib, the Peshawar Church bombing, the Joseph Colony fire, The Christian couple burned alive. www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/world/asia/explosion-rips-through-mosque-in-peshawar-pakistan.html

Bloody hell ofa that's a spot on post and totally agree

OfAFrenchMind-'hard earned' by your forefathers and mothers eh?
Elaborate!!

Miranda:
If I were Muslim, particularly one in a long robe and headscarf, I wouldn't want to go out of my house, let alone do the school run after hearing the views on here. I would wonder every time I sat next to someone on a bus, or went to visit the doctor, if they hated me
It can't be very pleasant to sit on the tube and worry that a non-Muslim will pull off your hijab and spit on you. It's also not very nice to sit on the tube and wonder if that Muslim opposite you is a suicide bomber.

Yes, I know the vast majority of UK Muslims would commit acts of terror, but equally the vast majority of British non-Muslims wouldn't pull off someone's hijab.

And frankly, I'd rather be spat at and racially abused than blown to pieces.

As for Pakistan is an artificial creation caused by partition 1947
The other country whose borders were drawn at the same time was India. I'd much rather be a Christian in India than in Pakistan.

Murdering 12 people because you feel offended...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html

Oh dear this will not end well at all

MistressMia, this isn't a competition

India, due to caste and teachings in the Hindu scripts still regards women as inferior, to be told who to marry, that the husband is 'god' and that certain castes don't mix. When islam is practised correctly, women are given their due rights and both sexes are equal in the eyes of the creator. I know very few cultural asian families who practise islam as my extended family do, where the women dictate who they will marry, go out to work and dress as they please.

India still has a shitload of problems and where there is men in the world, there will always be violence and destruction.

Mehsmum - on a serious note, you actually look at Muslims that way on the tube?

where there is men in the world, there will always be violence and destruction.
We're dealing with a right genius here.
Replace 'men' with 'black people' or 'Muslims'... Oh, er, perhaps not.
Miranda, I find your views totally unacceptable. Some men do things that are wrong. Don't tar them all with the same brush.

Miranda
In answer to your question, after the tube bombings, yes, I did. If Muslim women are scared to go today after the horrors in France, why is that odd?

I should add that when I was a child one my mother's closest friends was a Muslim lady: I am not reflexively anti-Muslim. I am reflexively anxious about the possibility about being blown to buggery by a nutter in a suicide vest.

And that's irrational?

go OUT today

where there is men in the world, there will always be violence and destruction

Your prophet, for one

When islam is practised correctly, women are given their due rights and both sexes are equal in the eyes of the creator

• The right not to be beaten too hard
• the right to have their testimony treated as less than a mans
• the right to inherit less than men
• the right to share her husband with three other women
• the right to lose her children in case of divorce
• the right not to marry a non-muslim
• the right to produce 4 (male) witnesses to prove she has been raped.

Holy shit us non-muslim women are so hard done by.

There is a reason why secularists and womens rights campaigners argue so vehemently against allowing Sharia Law. www.onelawforall.org.uk/press-release-–-women’s-rights-campaigners-welcome-withdrawal-of-the-law-society’s-sharia-wills-practice-note/

For me, it began with the French Revolution and its consequences:
-No undue influence from Religion on the State and Laws. We began in 1789, and confirmed it in 1905. We are able to learn about Science, Biology, Evolution thanks to that (in France). All of us, boys, girls, men and women.
-Freedom of Press: Déclaration française des droits de l'homme et du citoyen de 1789.
Even before, Satire was the first form of political commentary accessible to all. Satirists were and are the Jokers that point out the sore points, make you laugh then think hard, and they are a proud symbol of what Freedom of Press is. And now they have been targeted. It's not about 4 guys dead in a Journal, it's the symbol of Liberty in a Free Country that has been attacked.

It's about the feminists that cast off their corsets, pettycoats, then girdle and bras, to wear pants, dresses, nothing, and be able to walk, run and work at the same pace as men, that are recognisable on the public place and can hold public and political jobs. They fought for everything: voting right, education, access to work, independence, but also the right to walk in the street without being called slurs.

It’s about our grandparents that bled and died to uphold an idea of what humanity should be like: The Resistants that fought the shame of a defeated government to be scared no more and fight against an oppressive and dark ideology, The Londoners that kept calm and carried on, sure that they were making a stand against Barbary, just by continuing to live as they wanted, as best as they could.

So much other things happened that makes the Europe where I live a good place to live. I do not want that to change, and this is what I need and want to protect.

So every attack on this legacy we have is a personal attack.

Blimey, OfaFrenchMind, it's like that scene in Casablanca all over again! Stirring stuff, and I fully agree.

It is just wrong and unacceptable to say 'well, I don't condone murdering 12 journalists BUT THEY DREW OFFENSIVE CARTOONS' and then follow up with 'but I'm not saying it's ok to murder them I'm just saying the cartoons were offensive.

In the context of harping on about the offensiveness of the people who have been murdered, the only inference to draw is that their offensiveness is relevant in some way, otherwise why mention it? You are saying if people are murdered by muslims, what those people did (drawing cartoons) is relevant. TECHNICALLY that's not the same as saying it was ok to murder them, but the inference is the same.

That's exactly like people who ask 'what time was it, what was she wearing' etc after rape and then say they're not victim blaming.

OfaFrenchMind

Without disagreeing with any part of your wonderful post, I'd respectfully suggest that you could also include the Battle of Chalons in 274.

This specific civilisational clash is very old indeed.

That should be Battle of Tours 732... history fail.

Mistressmia you surpass yourself! You've proved to me how uneducated you are, even I know the basics on these common misunderstandings about islam. I'll address those and please any Muslims correct me if I'm mistaken.

A Muslim man can tap his wife to correct her using a tooth stick, and it cannot leave a mark or hurt her in any way and cannot be in a place like the face. The word 'beat' in English translations of the Quran means 'tap' in Arabic. This is a common mistake regarding the languages, and yes I do speak and understand some Arabic due to my upbringing so am familiar with grammatical literary mistranslations.

The issue of two women vs one man with regards to testimony is not a law or command but an event that the Quran tells of. Modern scholars confirm this.

Women inherit less than men because what men inherit they are bound by law to spend on their family for their financial upkeep. Women don't have this burden and can keep their share to do with as they wish. Friends have told me that under Islamic law a woman's salary is her own and nobody including her husband has any right to it. He alone shoulders rent, food shopping and clothing/all bills.

The divorce issue you mentioned is a lie. A woman automatically gets custody of her children over a man. Perhaps think before you speak? This law is outlined in a Hadith so I believe.

How can she marry a non Muslim when in Islamic tradition the religion comes from the fathers side, much like in Judaism where the religion comes from the mother.

Getting four witnesses to prove she has been raped. From discussion with friends I have been told this is highly unlikely and that a woman's testimony under oath is needed, that is all. Today's DNA testing can also prove it easily. The Quran warns against accusing chaste women of being unchaste with a very severe punishment apparently.

You are obviously from, as another poster said, a cultural and uneducated family. I've met enough of them in my lifetime who send the kids to Madrassa school but don't bother educating them at home, or who think wearing shalwar kameez guarantees you're a bonafied Muslim. Ex Muslims are so utterly predictable. I'm off anyway, have fun with your rantings and such like

Miranda! You had a go at Mistress but haven't responded to my asking if I'm irrational to be worried about suicide bombers on the tube.

And I've got some others now. Let's try this one:
How can she marry a non Muslim when in Islamic tradition the religion comes from the fathers side, much like in Judaism where the religion comes from the mother.
This makes no sense to me at all. I mean, none. None at all. Zero. Please explain.