to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

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The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

Mistress
So if Al-Azhar won't support their actions clearly they can't be seen as justified in Islam can they.

You are so anxious to pursue your theme that you are not actually thinking about what people are saying just mechanically churning out the same type of comment time and time again.

With all due respect to mistressmia I would lay bets on that 'what she's been through' is a result of the patriarchal and traditional Pakistani culture, if that's where she's from

Because of course the culture is not shaped or informed at all by the law of the land, based on Sharia which surprise surprise proscribes the death penalty for apostasy.

I hope Assia Bibi gains some comfort while she awaits her death penalty from the fact that it isn't really 'real islam' but just tradition ( ...oh wait its not... its Islam. Fuck me what a surprise !)

I think you are an angry ex Muslim who seeks to impersonate those such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali in their hatred for islam, and try to take everyone with them on your journey.
You haven't posted the evidence either. And you have no justification in saying I am an apologist. An apologist for what? I came on here to challenge your blatant vitriol and some utter gobshite I was seeing to let Muslims on MN know we don't all think like this. You should stop playing the victim of 'ex Muslim' and maybe find a new role in 'victim of asian culture'. I won't say exactly what origin I am but I'm well aware of what you most likely have been through and I've seen others embittered by their upbringings who then choose islam as a good dumping ground.

Nice victim blaming there, Miranda

There is not one country by the way that implements shariah law correctly, that is what I have been told. And from the evidence I've been shown, I believe it. So whatever Pakistan does, is based as always on politics, bigotry, patriarchy and lack of education. Simple as.

Miranda most Muslims in France support death penalty for apostasy. They are not "of Asian culture".

RandomNPC bless you in your shitstirring attempts

Had discussions online with Arab speaking muslims while I was in middle east and the line between criticism and discussion is very fine and they were fearful offline of being tagged a critic.

Senatus, yeah and I wonder who did those statistics. I wonder if they are to be trusted and I wonder if, like most media/consensus generalisations, is it even true?
I've known many, many Muslims for years and have yet to come across one who supports the death penalty for apostasy. These are educated modern people I'm talking about as well as uneducated and traditional elders.

Miranda, your not making a coherent argument. I mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somalian. You haven't engaged with that, because it defeats your argument that it's all about something inherent in Pakistani culture ( incidentally, India shares a shared culture with Pakistan, but doesn't seem to have a lot of the same problems: why's that, hmm?). Your arguments seem to be based on 'stuff people have told you', rather than the first hand experience that Mia has.
You really seem to be flailing here. Perhaps I'm just shitstirring again.

If I were Muslim, particularly one in a long robe and headscarf, I wouldn't want to go out of my house, let alone do the school run after hearing the views on here. I would wonder every time I sat next to someone on a bus, or went to visit the doctor, if they hated me, wouldn't help me if I needed it, and thought I should clear off back to where I came from. Harder for converts I would imagine because they are probably seen as traitors.

Random read my posts. I have years of experience with extended Muslim family and friends. I have seen a forced marriage due to culture pressure. And id love you to show me where I said Ayaan Hirsi Ali was Pakistani. I own one of her books and have read about her for years, so cheers for the heads up that she's Somali, but I knew that a long time ago.

Miranda my DH is Algerian, so I know a fair number of Muslims. Including educated ones.

Answer the question then! How is the harassment and persecution that Ayaan Hirsi Ali faced anything to do with a patriarchal Pakistani culture?

Hmm...let me enlighten you on India's problems shall I...hmm?
I'll bulletpoint so you can read and perhaps comprehend more easily.

Infanticide of baby girls
A huge and unspoken tradition of honour killings within the Sikh and Hindu communities based on caste issues
Caste discrimination
Severe sexual harassment towards women
Oh yeah, and the ongoing gang rapes of pre pubescent children, teenagers and young women there.

Fucking stupid statement to make in your last post. Words fail me so I shall be ignoring you blissfully from now.

or knock on the door of a mosque if you're brave enough and ask them to explain it.

Why would that require bravery MirandaSings26 ?

Also MirandaSings26 where are you getting your information about mistreatment of Muslims in the UK. Could it be... 'Tell Mama'?

If so a little bit of checking will reveal that they have been thoroughly discredited and shown to be inventing their data.

the vast vast majority of Muslims who practise the religion ie praying 5 times a day, fasting and giving charity regularly are doing what Islam asks of them

Yes they are doing what Islam asks of them and teaching that every Muslim should do what Islam asks of them. That's part of the problem because when someone reads your holy book they find that it says they should go out and kill people.

It's no use saying that it doesn't mean that unless you're going to have it reprinted so it doesn't say it.

I've been saying the same things to the Christians for years. Theirs is just as bad, but luckily most of them have abandoned it.

And if we are talking about Pakistan, why is it such an unstable basket case compared with India, if not for Islam?

Senatus, what's your point though? We all have experiences. It's sorting the wheat from the chaff and actually reading evidence for oneself to make an informed opinion. Not the biased shite that's been circulating on MN with regards to general Muslims.

So you're not engaging with me now? Well, that's your choice (we can make choices, that's a secular liberal democracy for you).

BackOnlyBriefly, no it was not tellmama. It's been personal experience with friends and relatives, as well as mothers whose children I've cared for in a previous occupation. I was not aware of what this organisation was until you've posted what you posted. But I know these things are not made up, whatever people say.

And if you had read mistressmia's post and then mine properly, you'll see I said 'brave enough' as a result of her claiming her life would be in danger because of that...apparently.

Oh dear, mistress mia with her same lack of understanding, spouting out nonsense that those even more ignorant than her, will believe without scrutiny.

Miranda is spot on. Mistress, from what what you say, you come from a family that seems to have little knowledge of Islam and were unable to answer most of your questions on islam. there seems to be a heavy focus on culture in your family. These three local maulvi friends of your father that you mentioned, are they also from Pakistan or were they born here? It is sad that a lack of knowledge has and continues to confuse you about the difference between your culture and Islam.

Random
And if we are talking about Pakistan, why is it such an unstable basket case compared with India, if not for Islam?

You made this comment with a straight face?

1. How stable is India? How many India politicians have been assassinated? How much political and religious violence exists? How safe are women? India has the highest number of child brides in the world.
   (www.girlsnotbrides.org/child-marriage/india/)

2. Pakistan is an artificial creation caused by partition 1947. Like many young countries its been subject to dictatorial and military leadership rather than stable democracy. Oh but all the issues are down to religion?

Al-Azhar is under heavy state control and will churn out what its told to do by Egypts government who need Western capital and support.
carnegieendowment.org/2013/11/07/egypt-s-al-azhar-steps-forward
www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-08/egypt-controlling-religion-governments-insurance-policy

What the religious scholars really think based on Islamic theology is a completely different matter. They refused to pronounce Islamic State as being heretics:
www.alarabiya.net/ar/arab-and-world/egypt/2014/12/11/??????-????-?????-????-????-??????-????-??-???????.html

Translated:
Al Azhar refused to pronounce takfir (anathema) on the group ISIS, and stressed the fact that a Muslim can not be denounced as kafir, regardless of his sins. Al Azhar announced on Thursday that during his speech in the assembly against violence and extremism at Noble Al Azhar, Sheikh Ibrahim Salih Al Husseini, the Mufti of Nigeria, didn’t agree to pronounce takfir on ISIS and groups like them, but explained their actions are not actions of the followers of Islam, but come forth from those who are not Muslims.

The statement made clear that all the scholars in the assembly know for sure that they cannot pronounce takfir on a believer, no matter how grievous his evil deeds are, but only through the determined principles of the Islamic faith which say: “Indeed a slave of Allah is not out of the faith unless he denies the doctrines that he affirmed in order to enter the faith, which were a testimony to the oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad PBUH, and his sins, no mater how grievous, will not cause the slave of Allah to leave Islam.”

Al Azhar spokesman, Abbas Showman, recently said: “As an official entity, Al Azhar has never in all its history proclaimed anyone or any organization as un-Islamic …. being occupied by this question will not lead to anything,” because “Al Azhar will not judge ISIS or its Islam as un-Islamic, for it is not its right, neither concerning ISIS or anyone else.”

...... BUT, as one human rights advocate in Egypt pointed out, they do in fact announce some people as being un-Islamic ( that's right you guessed it the ones who question Islam):

“What, didn’t the ulema and sheikhs of Al Azhar denounce as un-Islamic Naguib Mahfouz and Farag Foda and others from among the intellectuals and writers whose activities were stopped and some of whom were assassinated due to Al Azhar’s position?” www.light-dark.net/mobile/post.php?id=198953

The second link doesn't work