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to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

482 replies

adsy · 07/01/2015 11:55

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

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BigDorrit · 09/01/2015 16:55

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MephistophelesApprentice · 09/01/2015 17:05

JanineStHubbins

That reference is to a marcher at a republican commemoration wearing paramilitary garb in 2014, not to IRA members handily wearing uniforms during sniper battles in Belfast in 1971 or while planting bombs in 1974.

To quote LurkingHusband: You had the IRA, and the provisional IRA. There was a difference.

The skirmishes in the '70s were with a group distinct in composition and behaviour to the original IRA. The Provos were a terrorists, the IRA (debatably) guerrillas.

the juntas in South America, or imperialist expansion in the 19th century, or the Stalinist or Maoist regimes.

The crimes by the Juntas in South America, as well as the actions of Stalinist and Maoist regimes, were not undertaken to bring about political change in other countries. As such, while they may be acts designed to terrorise, they are not the same as a terrorist act.

You would need to be more specific regarding the acts of 19th Century imperial powers.

I wouldn't agree that most scholars accept the existence of state terror, though I will acknowledge a significant number do. Personally, I think the confusion around the definition are created by apologists for American or Zionist positions on South American and Middle Eastern insurgencies, but that might be unfair on my part. It's also true that I graduated a little under a decade ago and I have no doubt the field has continued evolving.

LurkingHusband I think you already have inferred what a non-state actor is, as you managed to correctly identify the errors made by state actors. But to be clear, is simply an organisation or individual acting without the overt support of a state and theoretically unaccountable to any legally responsible body. In practice, non-state actors can be used as a deliberate tool of covert military action by a state - right wing south-american paramilitaries with the CIA, Red Army Faction with KGB or the relationship between the Taliban and Al'qaeda - but the state-actors will always insist that the actions of the non-state actors are entirely independent.

The references are not circular, but a result of the ongoing development of international law based on both historical precedent and, it must be admitted, the political exigencies of the present. So the definition might well have been clouded by recent events - after all, are ISIS a terrorist group who happen to hold territory, or a state actor in themselves? Who will decide? So much of what was once clearly defined is now in flux.

If it didn't result in such appalling human tragedy, I'd say it was a fascinating time to be alive.

Nancy66 · 09/01/2015 17:08

I've just seen the footage of people leaving Friday prayers at the mosque and running to get a good spot at the public flogging of Raif Badawi.

all men of course.

Username12345 · 09/01/2015 17:15

BigDorrit

"The right to free speech has to go hand in hand with the right to be insulted."

It has more to do with character.

Referring to someones God as 'imaginary' and a 'sky fairy' is insulting without adding anything of value or substance to the conversation. There's no need for it. And they should look at themselves closer as it appears petty and nasty.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 17:20

if I was to call you nutty because of your fundamental belief to the right to freedom of speech would you still think it is ok

Yes I would. Happens all the time.

I get called all sorts of things, for lots of different reasons. There are whole countries where my being atheist would get me killed, but I don't take it personally.

On the general point of mocking religions it's almost impossible not to.

For example I'm told it's really offensive to ask a Christian what makes belief in god any different from belief in Thor or Fairies. They usually get very angry and say that I'm suggesting they are really stupid.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 17:22

Oh look! there's one now.

Username12345 please explain to me what is offensive in asking a christian or muslim the difference between belief in allah/god and belief in Thor or Fairies?

ghostland · 09/01/2015 17:24

"Referring to someones God as 'imaginary' and a 'sky fairy' is insulting without adding anything of value or substance to the conversation."

Why is it insulting? The sky is a natural phenomenon and fairies are supposedly benign mythical beings (unless they are evil fairies) and imagination is something which most people have and use every day. Also it is just an opinion. You don't have to agree with opinions but you shouldn't think opinions should be silenced because you don't agree with them. No doubt you have opinions which others would find insulting but you should be allowed to express them.

How can a religion be criticised if every criticism is taken as an insult and insults shouldn't be allowed? Does that mean that criticism shouldn't be allowed?

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 17:26

Yep, the field has moved on considerably, Mephistopheles. In fact, a whole sub-field has emerged - Critical Terrorism Studies. Much of what you're asserting wouldn't hold up, esp this insistence on 'forcing political change'. How would you describe NI loyalist paramilitaries then? They didn't want political change - far from it, they wanted to maintain the political status quo.

The most serious scholars of terrorism - Hoffman, Crenshaw, Rapoport, Horgan, English, Townshend, Roberts to name just a few - all acknowledge the existence of state terror.

In fact, you're reproducing the sort of statist worldview that necessitated the revision of the field wholesale. There are so many normative assumptions in what you've written, maybe try thinking through some of these.

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 17:29

"non state actor" has a vaguely semantically familiar ring to it ...

Oh, hang on

"enemy combatants"

I'll get my orange jumpsuit.

adsy · 09/01/2015 17:30

Referring to someones God as 'imaginary' and a 'sky fairy' is insulting without adding anything of value or substance to the conversation."
no it's not.
I genuinely struggle to uinderstand the difference between believing in god and believing in the tooth fairy. That is my right to think it's nonsense. Why is that insulting?

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BigDorrit · 09/01/2015 17:33

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Username12345 · 09/01/2015 17:43

BackOnlyBriefly

I do not like speaking for others but I would imagine they may feel as though you are deriding them.

ghostland I think you are being flippant. It is obvious those words were delivered in a jeering manner.

And as I have said, I have no problem with debates on religion. This would of course include criticism. But there's a difference between that and mocking I see on this and other threads.

RandomNPC · 09/01/2015 17:45

I'm a socialist. I have been since the miners strike, when I was about 14. I have a set of beliefs that I hold very dear. People sometimes insult those beliefs or take the piss. Some people even draw cartoons that differ from my views! Can you imagine??
You know what? They can do what they like, one day someone might even change my mind by challenging my beliefs.
What I don't do is plead special protection for my precious beliefs, or cut anyone's head off for not sharing my belief. That's democracy, folks! Stop asking for special favours just because your beliefs are supernatural.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 17:48

Username12345 you said Referring to someones God as 'imaginary' and a 'sky fairy' is insulting

So no need to speak for anyone else. Just speak for yourself. Do you think there is something stupid about the idea of believing in Thor or Fairies?

Username12345 · 09/01/2015 17:49

BigDorrit I'm sure they have heard it before. Saying those things is not new or clever. If it hasn't made them think about what they believe in the first time. I'm not sure why you think that would change the 10th or 100th time.

And as I said, the remarks in the posts are clearly meant to jeer not make people reflect.

BigDorrit · 09/01/2015 17:56

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Username12345 · 09/01/2015 18:00

BackOnlyBriefly

No I do not.

IMO the intellect of humans is limited. There are many things in the world and universe we do not understand and may not be able to comprehend.

For all we know, this 'reality' may not even be real, other dimensions/universes. Who knows what's happening outside of our own galaxy, etc.

I do not like to say things are impossible. It limits us. And if people thought that way and never tried, who knows, we may never have evolved to this point.

I would say God, Thor, Fairies are improbable.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 18:07

But if there's nothing wrong with believing in fairies or thor why is the comparison insulting.

Most of the Christians I have this conversation with eventually get annoyed and say it. Something along the lines of "only a fucking idiot would believe in them".

BigDorrit · 09/01/2015 18:08

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JohnQuig · 09/01/2015 18:15

It should be a difficult place if you're ANY religion. Religion should have no place in this country.

LaChatte · 09/01/2015 18:24

I'm a teacher in France and I have just been asked by my hierarchy to inform them of any unusual behaviour amongst my pupils. I work in school with a high percentage of Muslim families. I wonder if my colleagues in "whiter" schools will have had the same message?

to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim  ( part 2 )
LemonySnug · 09/01/2015 18:26

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BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 18:31

Not sure that I'd have asked that question, but if they have concerns related to the current terrorism what would be the point in asking in a Jewish School? And if this had been an IRA terrorist attack it would be pointless to look at a Muslim school.

Did you ask them what to look for? Perhaps a number of the oldest absent at the same time? Or worried parents rushing to take their children out of school? I can't imagine what they thought you would spot.

adsy · 09/01/2015 18:32

I'm a teacher in France and I have just been asked by my hierarchy to inform them of any unusual behaviour amongst my pupils. I work in school with a high percentage of Muslim families. I wonder if my colleagues in "whiter" schools will have had the same message?
I think it's very sensible to be on the look out for radicalisation among young muslim people. or do you have a problem with that?

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Varya · 09/01/2015 18:33

No harder for muslims in Britain than it was in past times.