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to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

482 replies

adsy · 07/01/2015 11:55

The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

OP posts:
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10
ghostland · 09/01/2015 15:25

This is a great debate (imho). Just think, if those killers had their way Mumsnet would not exist. The dual offense of women being seen (or rather their opinions being seen) and women having opinions would be too much for their misogynistic little egos.

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 15:26

My favourite definition of terrorism is 'people we don't like doing things we don't like to people we do like.'

Suitably weaselly.

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 15:27

Anti terror laws used to silence protest

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-371004/MPs-condemn-arrest-woman-spoke-out.html

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 15:29

JanineStHubbins

My favourite definition of terrorism is 'people we don't like doing things we don't like to people we do like.'

and we have a winner !

You are a former home secretary, and I Claim My Five Pounds.

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 15:31

Perhaps you didn't notice my gloss below the defn, Lurking...

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 15:46

JanineStHubbins

Perhaps you didn't notice my gloss below the defn, Lurking...

it's alright, neither did the electorate Wink

Tsoukalosy · 09/01/2015 15:50

Wow this has gone really off topic...

Theboodythatrocked · 09/01/2015 15:51

If someone told you that they could see a 6 foot rabbit who told them how to live their lives you would think it strange.

Ditto people belivihgv in books written by men for men thousands of years ago.

It's irrational but despite the rampant mysogyny in all religions relativity harmless.

Have no objection myself to bring called nutty. I frequently am.

We are allowed to say these things you know. People die for those rights, like 12 did yesterday.

Nuttiness becoming ugly evil.

Small step for all religions.

ChickenMe · 09/01/2015 15:54

I'm sorry if you found my response patronising fanjo. I felt my initial post was fairly mild and that to refer to my "right wing views" was a significant leap for you to make based on that post.

I didn't call you an equivalent of UKIP or right wing. You addressed me as such and I gather it was not meant as a compliment! I'm not upset by it but would like to underline the point that we have seen this in political debates as well as on MN-it is a way of shutting people down. Labour MPs like to do it. It's seen as a slur.

I disagreed with you and disagreeing is not shutting someone down and have certainly no intention of shutting anyone down.

MephistophelesApprentice · 09/01/2015 16:01

Include in your answer examples and references that allow for actions of the UK, US, French, Spanish, and Holy Roman Empires to not be called terrorism. Extra points will be granted if you can also discuss Palestinian independence and the creation of the State of Israel, the Mau Mau uprisings and the creation of the Country of Kenya, and the arrest and incarceration of Nelson Mandela for conspiring to commit acts of terrorism against the South African State. If time permits you may try to reach a satisfying narrative by concluding with the Good Friday agreement, and release of IRA/Sinn Fein members who were released despite being convicted of murder.

Terrorism is easy to define - violence by non-state actors that specifically targets non-military personnel for the purpose of causing political change. It is considered a civil crime rather than an act of war and those found captured in such acts do not receive the protections of the Geneva Convention.

It is separated from guerrilla warfare or even insurgency by the lack of a uniform, which is used to indicate the specific accountability of a government or organisation. Even an armband and locally designated rank is enough to require a captured combatant to be treated as a military prisoner, with all the protections and responsibilities conferred by international law.

The UK, US, French, Spanish and Holy Roman Empires were all nations. The responsibility for the actions of their armed forces fell originally to their monarchs, though as society has developed accountability now falls to the government of a nation state. Initial acts of the Palestinian intifada were undoubtedly terrorist, though the formation of HAMAS, with designated ranks and uniform, has made them into guerrilla fighters (many are still guilty of warcrimes for targeting civilians, but they cannot be considered genuine terrorists. Indeed, the universal military service in Israel makes even the idea of civilian targeting debatable).

If Nelson Mandela had planned to carry out a bombing campaign against uniformed targets while wearing the armband of an internationally declared armed force, he would have been planning a legitimate military campaign. By not doing so, he was planning a terrorist act. Early acts by the IRA, a declared and often uniformed insurgency, specifically target military and armed police, all of which are legitimate military targets. Early on, they could be considered guerrilla fighters. However, the civilian targeting by the Provos was an act of war.

Of course, it is the nature of civil wars, or wars of independence, that the ruling group label the insurgents as criminals rather than combatants, not least for the greater leeway it provides for extreme punishment. It was the retroactive negotiation of this status that led to the release of IRA members following the Good Friday Agreement.

Personally I agree with Tsoulasky - the deliberate targeting of civilians by non-accountable combatants for the purpose of political change is worthy of execution, as supported by the Geneva convention.

Sorry, Tsoulasky - I was a War Studies BA and couldn't help butting in.

FreudiansSlipper · 09/01/2015 16:08

being called nutty for the way you act is not the as being called nutty because of your fundamental beliefs that possibly your family and friends share (or may not)

if I was to call you nutty because of your fundamental belief to the right to freedom of speech would you still think it is ok

I doubt it

and then over and over again dismissed your beliefs and pulled them apart I doubt it would be taken all in good humour it must get terribly tiresome

and there was a time that Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist by many not just a freedom fighter

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 16:08

Mephistopheles: that definition is neat, but doesn't include state terror. Or pro-state terror.

I think it's a bit more complex than that.

Intrigued to learn of IRA uniforms though - can you elaborate?

Tsoukalosy · 09/01/2015 16:11

MephistophelesApprentice You articulated my thoughts far more eloquently :)

Theboodythatrocked · 09/01/2015 16:15

Chicken couldn't agree more. Being called UKIP or the old favourite a racist is prevalent in mumsnet to shut you down.

On that point i wish people couid grasp that you can't be racist to a religion! Race is race but religion is a choice you make. It has nothing to do with race.

Always amazes me the way feminists tie themselves in knots defending mysogynistic religions, ie all religions, because they feel obliged not to offend religious women. So bloody hypocritical.

MephistophelesApprentice · 09/01/2015 16:23

JanineStHubbins

I understand what you mean, but by definition 'pro-state terror' is a war crime. It is the inability to identify an organisation to hold to account that makes an act terrorist in addition to an atrocity.

An example of what some call 'state terror' would be the Hamburg Firestorm, a deliberate attack designed to attack the morale of the German people (and render a city non-contributory to the war effort) in order to bring about political change. But it was an act authorised by a legitimate government and enacted by uniformed personnel, with every element of the planning and operation subject to careful record keeping. Hypothetically, a court for warcrimes convened after the war could have called witnesses from Marshal Harris up to the Prime Minister or down to the individual air men. Evidence could have been presented that identified every pilot and gunner who participated in the act. The theoretical court would have been able to reach a decision based on clear evidence and identify those possibly worthy of punishment.

There has been law in war for millennia, poorly respected though it might often have been, and a consideration for jurisprudence in military action for more than a century. It is acting without respect for international law that defines the terrorist.

I can't access too much material on IRA uniforms right now, as all my old books are at home (and I'm theoretically at work), but the following link gives some info:

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4238120.ece

JohnnyAlucard · 09/01/2015 16:25

If we assume that 99% of Muslims disagree with acts of terrorism in the name of Islam then France currently has about 60,000 people who do agree with it and are likely to do more.

MephistophelesApprentice · 09/01/2015 16:27

Posted a little too soon. You will note in the article that while recognisable as a uniform, it is considered to be that of a banned terrorist organisation. This is part of the contestation of military status that I mentioned in the first post.

I remember something about early skirmishes along the border during the troubles and the IRA combatants wearing specific armbands, I'm just trying to dig up supporting references while the boss isn't looking.

Tsoukalosy · 09/01/2015 16:27

Johnny Where are these statistics from? That seems awfully high, but then there has been many french muslims on twitter glorifying the attack on Charlie.

Username12345 · 09/01/2015 16:28

France currently has about 60,000 people who do agree with it and are likely to do more.

I don't know about the figures but it's a leap from agreeing with to doing.

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 16:28

That reference is to a marcher at a republican commemoration wearing paramilitary garb in 2014, not to IRA members handily wearing uniforms during sniper battles in Belfast in 1971 or while planting bombs in 1974.

Re state terror: you've chosen an example from WW2. There are many, many more examples that occur outside of declared 'states of war' eg the juntas in South America, or imperialist expansion in the 19th century, or the Stalinist or Maoist regimes.

Most of the scholars working on terrorism acknowledge the existence of state terror, btw.

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 16:29

MephistophelesApprentice

Fascinating - and totally irrelevant since you include in the opening sentence a weasel definition (thanks JanineStHubbins)

violence by non-state actors

wtf is a "non state actor" ? (we'll put aside the implication that violence by state actors is OK, although the De Menezes family might disagree).

Terrorism, is like intelligence - hard to define without introducing circular references. Maybe that's why it seems to go hand in hand with religion ?

LurkingHusband · 09/01/2015 16:29

You had the IRA, and the provisional IRA. There was a difference.

Theboodythatrocked · 09/01/2015 16:29

Freud sorry but here's the rub.'

I detest and dislike Frankie boyle. However he has the right to free speech within the law.

I detest far right anti abortionists but they have a right to talk.

Nutty is a fairly harmless name for religions that are rampantly mysogynistic and controlling.

And all religions are.

It's everyone's right to believe what they like but equally all religions have to accept people scrutinising and debating them.

JanineStHubbins · 09/01/2015 16:32

Just saw your last post: I think you're confusing border skirmishes in the 1920s with the BSpecials who wore armbands over civilian clothing.

Username12345 · 09/01/2015 16:35

It's everyone's right to believe what they like but equally all religions have to accept people scrutinising and debating them.

And that cannot be done without being insulting, because....?

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