to think britain is a difficult place to be if you're muslim ( part 2 )

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The attack on Charlie Hebdo.
Shall we have 3 guesses who's responsible?

Slag off who you like I am not stopping you . I just said my opinion on what you said. You really don't like it though Tsouk. Sorry.

I really have nothing else to say apart from what I said above. Am an atheist,incidentally.

Adieu

I see nothing that is bullying on the thread. Most people are simply giving views peacefully. We are allowed to say there is no God and many religions are sexist and homophobic and that Islam particularly does not cover itself in any particular glory on this score.

I hope Paris 2015 will be a turning point in the West fighting even harder for freedom of speech. The gloves are off and if anything good has come out of this killing and the 2000 killed by Boko Haram by the way yesterday in Nigeria which I regard as 100x worse than the killings in Paris by the way as more people died, then let it be freedom to say what we like and I include in that freedom of those whose views I find abhorrent to say what they like too.

Nobody bullied Miranda, she was the one throwing insults, accusing Mia of being a self pitying liar and an uneducated one to boot. Demanding that another poster elaborate on why she wanted to protect freedoms earned by her forefathers. She was the one who accused mn of being a white middle class enclave with a few token posters who may be married to other nationalities before declaring herself as that. In short she was a coward protected by the anonymoty of her keyboard.

LurkingHusband I think you said the right thing to your muslim housemate as it goes. As you say it is a crutch so kicking it out from under him may not be the best thing to do.

I want the end of religion, but if I had a machine that removed faith instantly I wouldn't use it on people. What I want is to convince people not to become religious. As part of that I want to convince currently religious people not to push it onto younger people, but let them make up their own minds.

when the French President Francois Hollande arrived at the scene he said that we should not loose sight of France being a united country or words similar to that effect and again repeated it yesterday

I agree yet I think we are losing sight of this

on the whole people are good, people are living their lives just as you and I many in terrible poverty, in the middle of wars and for many religion is their peace of mind (I think for myself it possibly would be too)

we can pull Islam apart as much as we like but we are losing sight of people and this we can not do. type verses from the Koran or the hadiths that came about when life was very different for us now but not so different from how sadly many are living why are muslims going to say that the word of god is wrong, they are fully that when the message came about life was very different and they adapt religion around their life

even as an atheist myself I am well aware of how much religion has an influence on my life and how it has been adapted to suit the way we live

we need to understand what is pulling young men and also women to wanting to become radicalised (that is not to say all go on do to something bad) but we are not tackling that we are just pulling apart something they believe in

It behoves us all to bear in mind that religion brings great comfort to a great number of people. So does Star Wars mind you, but the principle is the same.

I am not sure Star Wars will be doing so in a 1000 years time

but yes it does I have seen that in my work and it has left me wondering if I were in the situation some of my clients are would I suddenly want to believe to make some sense I do not know

many people I admire are believers that is why I would not call someone stupid or nutty or whatever I do not claim to know better than they do or to be more intelligent

"Fewer guardian reader types are crying racism".

That's because Islam is not a race, it is a religion, a set of beliefs which people can (in theory) choose to stop believing. Therefore there is nothing racist about being against Islam, anymore than it would be logical to accuse someone who is anti-Scientology of being racist.

In which case ghostland I take it you don't view being again Judaism as racist either?

no islam is not a race

but muslims from arab countries are certainly treated differently from muslims from Indonesia

In which case ghostland I take it you don't view being again Judaism as racist either

Of course it isn't. I'm against it just as I am against the other religions.

muslims from arab countries are certainly treated differently from muslims from Indonesia

If true then it must be because of race and not because they are Muslim which invalidates that claim. If you're right then the truth is that people from arab countries are certainly treated from muslims from Indonesia.

Not a good thing, but not the same thing.

Should say this.

"If true then it must be because of race and not because they are Muslim which invalidates that claim. If you're right then the truth is that people from arab countries are treated differently from people from Indonesia."

There's now a Jewish supermarket being held hostage. Let's take another guess shall we. Hands up who thinks it'll be Buddhists, or maybe those pesky Zoroastrians.

Is Buddhism a religion ? It starts by telling followers there's no such thing as God.

It also says that if you find it doesn't work, feel free to ignore/discard it.

I've always viewed it as a philosophy, to be honest.

(And to comment on my sense of humour, I almost pissed myself laughing when I discovered the UK expert on Buddhism in the early 1900s was called Christmas Humphries)

Lurking It is still one of the 6 world religions, as Buddha is seen as a deity as when he was Siddhartha Gautama, a prince he developed understating of the human existence,Religion is not all about worshiping supernatural forces.

And thats the point, when you hear of radical Buddhists they are the ones setting THEMSELVES on fire in Tibet for PEACE. In Islam they only sacrifice themselves if it will destroy a lesser life.

Fanjo I understand you have left the thread but nevertheless I shall reply.

I'm afraid you have helped me make my point. I don't think welcoming a debate on Islam/immigration/integration is particularly inflammatory either; in light of yesterday's events and in light of the information which has subsequently emerged about social exclusion in France I think it prudent to be honest in any debate, without fear of causing this ridiculous notion of "offence". If I offend then I apologise. I try not to but the truth is worth more.

If such a debate were held I would hope that prominent members of all communities in the UK would participate and be able to speak freely, within the law of course.

Your reaction shows how even a benign mention of the subject seems to trigger some sort of panic in some people.

If I were a UKIP supporter or a right winger, so what? Are UKIP a proscribed group now? No. Heck, it's just as legal to support the BNP as it is the ANL; I find both groups distasteful but Freedom of thought and expression within the law is everyone's human right in the UK.

You and others want to shut down an opinion you don't agree with by crying "UKIP and right wing" which is meant to scare me, write me off and is supposed to make me worry that I'm one step away from pulling on a white hood. Which was precisely the point I was making.

This shutting down has been going on for too long and really all you and the "shutters down" are doing is imposing your morals on others.

ChickenMe wrote 'shutting down has been going on for too long'

I heartily agree with this. In 1990 when the Kuwait War started, I was teaching in a multi-cultural school. When the first RAF planes were shot down some of my pupils cheered. I was really alarmed by this and went to try to talk to my local MP about it. I was told very firmly not to sound racist and basically ignored. I don't suppose for a moment I was unique and I wonder if more notice had been taken this problem might have been addressed earlier.

Even historically speaking, The ottoman empire was a huge deal in the world, and they tried to make everyone prescribe to islam, but people stood up against them. Case in point, there are still to this day very elderly ladies in Bosnia and Herzegovina who bare tattooed arms and hands (as christians) who had to take such permanent action against being forced against their wills into marriages as young children. How is that right they felt the need to do that? Tattooing is traditionally banned in most of the world religions including christianity, judaism and islam. The point is society makes changes and religions should reflect changes in society much like judaism and christianity have. Islam is rigid and does not want to move forward.

Tsoukalosy there are strands of Buddhism, I believe (greater and lesser vehicle vaguely spring to mind). Also I believe the veneration of Buddha is not as a god, but as one who has reached enlightenment. Something that Buddhism encourages us all to strive for. That said my interest is that of a dilettante rather than a scholar, so I'm not pressing for an argument.

However, regarding Buddhist self immolation (one of historys more iconic photos, sadly ) it's worth pointing out that in Buddhism, suicide - the deliberate ending of ones life - is regarded as abhorrent because it is effectively opting out of the woes they believe you must suffer to achieve enlightenment, and as such is a backwards step which would lead to the need for many more lives to catch up.

No arguments here :) just enjoying a lively debate and I find your thoughts on Buddhism very interesting lurking and I think thats the point, we are allowed to perceive things differently and that what allows us to change and develop as humans. I agree that sadly those monks sat amid the flames is tragically iconic and would be interesting to know if they are classed as suicide or martyres of peace.

Tsoukalosy

I'll see your Ottoman empire, and raise you Al Andalus - where Jews, Christians and Muslims all lived peacefully for hundreds of years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Non-Muslims_under_the_Caliphate

in pact protected by the Muslim majority.

Shades of the Muslims who protected Christians in Pakistan in 2013

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/muslims-form-human-chain-pakistan_n_4057381.html

LurkingHusband; "It behoves us all to bear in mind that religion brings great comfort to a great number of people."

And heroin gives great comfort to a lot of people too. Doesn't stop people from abusing it.

SlaggyIsland; Nope. I have no problem with people criticising Judaism or any religion or making fun of the holocaust etc. Freedom of speech means the right to offend but not the right to kill.

Tsoukalosy

I agree that sadly those monks sat amid the flames is tragically iconic and would be interesting to know if they are classed as suicide or martyres of peace

When we were shown that image, as part of contemporary world history, it provoked a lively debate too. Including a diversion into the actions of the press, and whether they should have shot the photograph. It was a bit of a magic trick moment when our teacher showed us another photo of the same scene, only slightly wider view. In it you can clearly see another monk with a camera. The obvious implication being that if the press didn't photograph it, it would still be recorded. It's a fascinating glimpse into a moment in time.