In not being all humble and respectful and all that.(abortion related)

[IdontusuallyNC]

I have had the contraceptive injection twice now obviously I had it done on time and followed all instructions given to me I also usually use condoms I have 3 occasions where condom use has not been optimum all in the same weekend.

I have recently to my horror discovered that I am pregnant, POAS because I feel like crap and it felt like HG not expecting it to be the case but these things happen. Due to the amount of children I have one being tiny the nature of the relationship with my sexual partner and a quite serious history of HG and SPD(all but 1 previous pregnancy) I have booked in to have a TOP on Tuesday.

I'm quite comfortable with my decision and in general tend to be quite matter of fact about things.

My closest friend has gone very weird on me I declined an invitation for Tuesday from her and disclosed why. Ever since she has been upset because I'm not being sad enough she feels I'm being flippant about human life and not respectful.

I'm not entirely sure what she means by this and she has tried to be sympathetic not that it is needed but has mentioned this on a few occasions.

So am I meant to be sad and stuff or is it acceptable to feel positive towards the decision?

I have spent some time this afternoon reading pro life websites and information (for research) and it really saddens and disgusts me that there is little to no mention of the pregnant woman, the focus is always on the 'unborn child'. Reading the pro life stance on fatal foetal abnormality was particularly upsetting. Apparently if a woman terminates a pregnancy for fatal foetal abnormality they will undoubtedly suffer mental health issues. I am sure that many women do, however they don't seem to consider the impact on a woman's mental health if they are forced to continue a 'doomed' pregnancy to term. Or the physical impact of a full term pregnancy. Or the emotional impact of the indefinite waiting for your 'unborn child' to die.
As much as I try to understand the pro life stance, I just can't do it.

I know this isn't really relevant to where the discussion is currently but I just wanted to share my thoughts.

But the thing is baby faced, being 'pro life' is not just one stance. Many people are 'pro life' in the sense that they feel life has inherent value and should be respected, even if the final outcome is the decision to abort.

I consider myself to be ' pro life' but as I have said up thread I would never deny a woman the right to access an abortion. I just think that as society as a whole we need to re-evaluate where we are with the rates of unwanted pregnancy, whether we are still, satisfied we the information we have ( in relation to fetal experience and pain) and how we can help women to need less abortion full stop. Abortion is not a ' good' thing no matter what light you view it in, people die from having abortions etc etc.

I just feel shouldn't be a taboo to discuss and debate and research the whole subject so that we are sure whatever happens is as compassionate as can be, and that all options have been explored first.

Mrshumpty there are plenty of papers that hypothesise foetal pain but reviews of results by most scientists do not support the contention. For instance, from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists 2010 review:

"In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

So it is not the fact that you present.

I hope all went well today, Idont

make sure the decision is yours, i was given no choice and have NEVER gotten over it, i think it depends, i personally have polycystic ovaries so have only gotten pregnant that one time. and because i was forced into the wrong decision i can't help but feel like i should have just run away, and lived with my baby in whatever way i could have.

i will never say it is wrong to get an abortion, because for some people it is definitely the right thing to do, but just make sure its you that wants an abortion and not someone else.

I'm not sure about a life without PIV sex. It's one of life's free and beautiful pleasures.

If that makes me a slut I don't give a fuck. I have an issue with hormonal contraceptives and have had one unwanted pg and one abortion. I very much hope that current contraceptive plans mean I don't have another one but I don't want to stop having PIV sex.

That's your opinion Mrs and you are entitled to it.

Maybe you could explain how someone could be pro life and choose to have an abortion? Surely having an abortion goes totally against what being pro life stands for?
And just a few other points - not all pregnancies that end in abortion are unwanted. Abortion IS a necessary medical procedure. And also, people can die from not having an abortion, most recently there was Savita Hallappanavar who has already been mentioned up thread.

Women die form having babies, at a greater rate than they do from having abortions. That doesn't make childbirth "not a good thing".

I'm not sure about a life without PIV sex. It's one of life's free and beautiful pleasures

Yes. Absolutely this.

I'm early 30s. I've split up from the father of my child (after 14 years together) and find myself in a new relationship. I'm using two forms of contraception. I'm also infertile. I'm sure as HELL not prepared to forgo sex for the rest of my reproductive life in case of failure of contraception!

Pro life websites are a pile of old pish, pictures of 'aborted babies', which are actually those reborn dolls, or Babyborn dolls with raspberry jelly on them.
I used to read them to punish myself back then, and even I'd be laughing when we had the same, 'aborted feotus ', in the house, in the form of my then 5yr olds doll.
It also showed that not only were those pro lifers cruel, they were incredibly stupid too.

MrsH, are you posting facts out of step with mainstream medical opinion?

Well, that is a shock.

Haha @ Yonic

I thought I recognised something...

The comments about posters feeling sad for those of us who went through a termination without the weeping and guilt are incredibly patronising. I think this thread has shown that there are plenty of us who have had a termination without regret or guilt.

As an adult I have bodily autonomy and I refuse to feel bad for exercising my right to a perfectly legal procedure.

It was my decision and mine alone to make. So what if I felt relieved and happy afterwards? Would it have been better for me to go through the pregnancy and give birth to a child that I didn't want or love?

I can guarantee that all the professional support in the world would have made no difference.

If you are going to see it from the point of view of a child, what child wants to be born into an environment where they are resented, or put into care?

I have Brillo I think you'll find those pictures on many of the websites have been circulating decades before baby born dolls have been on the market. It doesn't take much imagination to think of what real aborted fetuses would look like does it. It's not going to be a pretty picture.

Re the evidence around pain, it's true that at this time the royal college of obs and gynae have not found evidence which they feel is compelling enough to indicate pain pre 24 ish weeks gestation (conveniently the same point as abortion on demand is available. However if you really look at what they are saying they use words like 'probably' and that the issue is 'difficult to define.

There is also ongoing debate around whether pain is really 'centred' in the cerebral cortex or the thalamus ( the latter develops much earlier. )

In any case what does seem to be widely agreed is that fetuses do have the ability to feel pain and indeed do feel pain in some circumstances, after 24 weeks gestation. As a society we still condone abortion without anaesthesia to the fetus even after this time, I am interested in why this is, particularly when other fetuses who are wanted will be given anaesthesia if surgery is needed in utero. Personally I think it's just too difficult for people to think about, the consequences are too profound and would challenge the concept of abortion being 'ok' particularly late abortions.

Yes, MrsH, most scientists do tend to use words like probably.

I notice that you have no such reservations and out and out state that "For all but the very earliest abortions we are talking about a feeling 'thing' capable of feeling pain etc. Those are the facts"

Frankly, if I want to bang my head against a brick wall, I can go post in the comments section of a Ched Evans article. I can't be bothered to waste time with your usual masquerade. Hope you don't drive too many others to distraction.

Night night.

Those are the facts!!

Hilarious mrsh. Thanks for the chuckle.

Even if they feel pain, do you really think that's going to stop people?

Please go ahead and make fun of me all you like, I usually find that it's better to keep an open mind and listen to all sides of a discussion.

What has been 'fact' has varied all through time and what we think we know now will not be the same as what we think we know in 20, 50, 100 years. Are understanding of the world is developing all the time and no don't we will understand more about life, physical and psychological, before birth as our ability to undertake the science develops. I for one think it's farcical that many 'scientists' propose that the unborn child is In 'coma' pre birth, so what, it just come out of the 'coma' at birth what a lot of rubbish!!

I have not said anywhere on this thread that I oppose abortion if it's really needed, just that there ought to be more regard and compassion involved. Such as thinking more about anaesthesia for fetuses who are being aborted above the limit we already know they can experience pain. No one has commented on that yet- why not? The reason is it starts to force people to think about these fetuses as beings capable of having pain inflicted on them and that's just too hard isn't it?

Livid the truth isn't will stop some people and it won't stop,others, but more importantly it would compel the medical practitioners undertaking abortions to provide anaesthesia to the fetus.

No not hard at all. The pregnancy is being terminated - do you really think people are going to have the theoretical pain of a foetus uppermost in their minds? I get that it's an emotive subject for many people but it might be time to accept that there are those of us for whom it isn't actually emotive at all.

The lack of humanity some of the people this thread is just chilling!!

Not really - considering that the women having the abortions are human too. Their lives take precedence over a foetus if they choose to have a termination. And expecting them to then go through a shitload of angst when they don't feel that way is pretty inhumane too.

Surely the argument about pain can be solved by using anaesthesia to be on the safe side? From the posts saying that it is used currently in other circumstances surely there's no insurmountable technical problem?

That would remove that objection entirely.

Though I suspect it would be replaced with yet another.

Mrshumptydumpty are you saying you support those websites in their use of those pictures?

Oh irony. You do make me chuckle.

In any case what does seem to be widely agreed is that fetuses do have the ability to feel pain and indeed do feel pain in some circumstances, after 24 weeks gestation. As a society we still condone abortion without anaesthesia to the fetus even after this time, I am interested in why this is

I don't know - presumably the same reason we condone birth without anaesthesia to the foetus? Just a thought.

Actually, the foetus is anaesthetised (or killed with a single injection) for a late abortion. Which is more than it gets when being birthed.

As to the jelly-coated dolls used on anti-choice literature, I can share one personal story. I miscarried a 21-week foetus, which was not at all gory but a beautiful little thing. A couple of years ago I needed to revisit this experience, so started looking online for photos at 21 weeks' gestation. Unsuprisingly, my first thousand results or so came from anti-choice websites. Fine, I thought, I just want the picture. Could I find it?? NO! I found pictures of 'my' baby, labelled as 12 weeks and boasting prettier eyelashes than they have at even 21 weeks. After 20 weeks, I was being shown fully developed babies. I'm no obstetrician, but even I knew this was mendacious crap. (Cheers to Babycentre, by the way, which has a good week-by-week photo gallery.)

If the manipulative fuckers can't even show the right pictures of foetal development, their information is utterly discredited.