In not being all humble and respectful and all that.(abortion related)

[IdontusuallyNC]

I have had the contraceptive injection twice now obviously I had it done on time and followed all instructions given to me I also usually use condoms I have 3 occasions where condom use has not been optimum all in the same weekend.

I have recently to my horror discovered that I am pregnant, POAS because I feel like crap and it felt like HG not expecting it to be the case but these things happen. Due to the amount of children I have one being tiny the nature of the relationship with my sexual partner and a quite serious history of HG and SPD(all but 1 previous pregnancy) I have booked in to have a TOP on Tuesday.

I'm quite comfortable with my decision and in general tend to be quite matter of fact about things.

My closest friend has gone very weird on me I declined an invitation for Tuesday from her and disclosed why. Ever since she has been upset because I'm not being sad enough she feels I'm being flippant about human life and not respectful.

I'm not entirely sure what she means by this and she has tried to be sympathetic not that it is needed but has mentioned this on a few occasions.

So am I meant to be sad and stuff or is it acceptable to feel positive towards the decision?

I think one of the reasons that "so many" women are having abortions these days is because the babies we do have are much more likely to survive and we have come to the conclusion generally that it is better to have fewer children than to spread or wealth (and environmental resources) so thin that life is miserable for most of the people who are alive. Maternal care, abortion and birth control have made all our lives far better than most other technologies.

Clinton reportedly said that he thought that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare". I have heard that this is a safe opinion for a polition to venture.

I would personally say that I think abortion should be safe, legal, and rarely needed.

You can make abortion "rare" by making it difficult to get a referral in time, but you will only make it “rarely needed” if you focus on the causes that are within human power to alter.

Some examples include:
support for women to leave abusive relationships (abusive men sabotage or forbid contraception).
better contraceptive knowledge as a society. That includes amongst men, because too many men also think "the pill" is 100% effective and that a women who gets pregnant despite it must have been lying or have forgotten her tablets. The idea that you could have sex with an honest, non-forgetful woman but she could develop D&V within hours of the shag seems to be a totally unknown risk to many. If it wasn't, maybe more people would use condoms in addition to the pill.
As sperm can live for up to 5 days, pregnancy is a realistic possibility of someone developing D&V after a sexual encounter. While we're on the subject, many women seem unaware of what they are supposed to do if they missed a tablet, or threw it up.

Good point re education. Eg even if you do develops d and v you can stil have the coil inserted up to five days post sex to prevent implantation so for many people that might be a much better option that the wait and see approach.

And for many it won't (even if it were practically possible, and even if people put two and two together.

If people are on the pill it's generally because they don't want the coil (also not foolproof) or injection (ditto).

I don't think I'd have a medical procedure to prevent a much lead likely medical procedure. But it's interesing to see where others draw the line - ending a pregnancy pre-implantation) is acceptable, but post-implantation not?

I think there are some with more extreme views who would take issue with your method, mrshumptydumpty.

I'm thinking of SPUC in particular but I've no doubt doubt there are others.

What method? Sorry I'm genuinely confused!! The advice re coil used to be standard at any FPC that prescribed the MAP due to the known failure rate, maybe that has now changed.

My point is just that's there are nearly always options. I would imagine that for many (most sensible) women having a coil fitted even if it's to be removed Ina month or two might be a much more acceptable option than risk having a TOP and all the possible issues associated with this.

I think there are some extremists who regard the coil as being a form of abortion because it prevents implantation of a fertilised embryo, mrshumptydumpty

My view is pragmatic really, at least that's the way I see it.

There are many many ways to avoid pregnancy. Contraception is freely available. Any method can be combined with the rhythm method (charting etc). Even if you miss a pill, have a split condom, or just don't use contraception there is the option of a coil. Yes an option that some women wouldn't want but it's still a viable and effective option. Or there is sterilisation which will suit another cohort. Or there is non PIV sex or abstinence (deeply unfashionable but 100% reliable:-) there is also adoption, again very unfashionable on MN but still an open avenue.

However, even with all the above some women will want to end a pregnancy for many and varied reasons. On balance I do think every child should be wanted and in the society we live in many aren't ( even the born ones) so adding to that problem would be self defeating. However, like Imsaid earlier, we should be compassionate even to unborn people/fetuses/ whatever terminology and I do find it really distasteful as a human being when women cheapen life ( albeit non 'viable' outside the womb, or even totally viable but not wanted by the woman it happens to find itself in) with some of the thinking and comments expressed on this thread.

For all but the very earliest abortions we are talking about a feeling 'thing' capable of feeling pain etc. Those are the facts.

I would imagine that for many (most sensible) women having a coil fitted even if it's to be removed Ina month or two might be a much more acceptable option than risk having a TOP and all the possible issues associated with this.
I would imagine that for many (most sensible) women having a coil fitted even if it's to be removed Ina month or two might be a much more acceptable option than risk having a TOP and all the possible issues associated with this.
That aimed at me?

The coil is not risk free, and nor is it an easy or preferred option for a lot of women.

It's an individual risk assessment based on the individual's own perception of the relative risks and disbenefits.

But there are no reliable stats on pregnancy and termination resulting from known contraceptive failure, so it's quite an academic argument.

It's all subjective though isn't it, because some people would regard you as having aborted many many lives, by using the coil

Hello MrsH

The risk of getting pregnant from one instance of unprotected PIV is well below 50%, especially if it's a. Missed pill situation (where there is often residual hormonal protection).

A woman who knows she had an instance like this would be testing ASAP and, if she was unlucky, would probably be taking early steps.

So I would be surprised if "most sensible" women follow your methodology of a coil just in case, perhaps only where a condom broke mid-ovulation cycle. I certainly wouldn't.

The coil used after contraceptive failure has exactly the same effect as a later termination if it prevents implantation of an embryo - it prevents a potentially viable pregnancy from continuing.

The difference is that you know there is a potentially viable pregnancy in one case, and you don't in another. Your position doesn't make much sense to me.

I do struggle with those who think it should be legal to abort a viable foetus until birth.

If that makes me anti feminist then so be it. Abortion on demand up to 24 weeks then it should be illegal. Maybe I'm a forced birther but it's one of the main reasons I can't describe myself as feminist on here and I think the vast majority of women in this country feel the same is me.

Supporting the termination of a healthy viable feutus to term perpetuates the myth that feminists are mad baby killing harridans.

However op you should not feel bad about your termination.

Is there a myth that feminists are mad baby killing harridans? I've never heard it if there is

"For all but the very earliest abortions we are talking about a feeling 'thing' capable of feeling pain etc. Those are the facts."

NO. Those are your OPINIONS, they are not facts, and have not been proven whatsoever. If you can't hold your position without lies, why bother?

There's a myth that feminists eat boy babies, I think? Maybe that's the one.

Having worked in an operating theatre where abortions took place up to 12 weeks gestation, i would never have one myself, and yes i would feel sad if a friend had one without any sadness.

Oh yes, that myth!

Can you elaborate on why, kilmuir?

The TOP I had involved an injection to stop the heartbeat, then removal under general anaesthetic the following day, after giving me meds to encourage /start opening of the cervix.
I was led to believe, and have no reason to doubt that the feotus felt any pain.
This was BPAS 8 years ago, at 23+5, which is their cut off date in my situation.

Oh, and they weren't nice and caring, and kind, they treated me like a naughty schoolgirl on a conveyor belt who shoukd be punished, two peopke spoke to me kindly, the anae

There is pretty much no support for the idea of foetuses feeling pain before 22/24 weeks - which is not "all but the earliest abortions". So that isn't the "fact" you contend. And how pain is perceived in a foetus is not really understood. We don't really do anything to stop pain in foetuses, or even to assess if it, that are intended to be born, so I wonder about the horror and concern some express around potential pain in abortion. Much of a foetuses experience must be pretty awful really. Which is probably why nature has us develop in such a way that we don't remember it.

Sorry, cut off, the anaesthetist, and the cleaner, every other person working there was rude, dismissive, and uncaring.

Why don't we care about pain for babies in childbirth then?
Surely that must hurt them, the one I aborted was injected, the one who is waiting for her dinner was yanked out by a giant sink plunger.

Sorry again I can't do links but if you google, 'doctors on fetal pain' you will find a lot of scientific papers etc which have found evidence that fetuses Can experience pain quite early on, and also suggest that much more research is required to explore this further. This is why fetuses who require surgery in the womb are given anaesthetic!!!

I know this is a really difficult and in fact terrifying proposition, and I feel sad about that as I think women should be in possession of the facts! or at least the evidence to weight and balance as they choose.

I have brilliant, but we do care about pain for children in labour, but it's as yet an unexplored science as how to best predict and deliver pain relief to babies being born ' in time' and without causing more potentially serious issues. That's not the same as not 'caring'. Babies born prematurely are routinely given analgesia as the studies show they tend to do better, less cortisol etc.