In not being all humble and respectful and all that.(abortion related)

[IdontusuallyNC]

I have had the contraceptive injection twice now obviously I had it done on time and followed all instructions given to me I also usually use condoms I have 3 occasions where condom use has not been optimum all in the same weekend.

I have recently to my horror discovered that I am pregnant, POAS because I feel like crap and it felt like HG not expecting it to be the case but these things happen. Due to the amount of children I have one being tiny the nature of the relationship with my sexual partner and a quite serious history of HG and SPD(all but 1 previous pregnancy) I have booked in to have a TOP on Tuesday.

I'm quite comfortable with my decision and in general tend to be quite matter of fact about things.

My closest friend has gone very weird on me I declined an invitation for Tuesday from her and disclosed why. Ever since she has been upset because I'm not being sad enough she feels I'm being flippant about human life and not respectful.

I'm not entirely sure what she means by this and she has tried to be sympathetic not that it is needed but has mentioned this on a few occasions.

So am I meant to be sad and stuff or is it acceptable to feel positive towards the decision?

And no I'm not fussed about having a TOP not fussed at all. I'm about as bothered by it as I would be about having my appendix out.

I don't need to be respectful or doleful about a simple medical procedure.

If this had been caused by me taking a lack of care to prevent it then I may feel differently but I don't.

mammu Only if you see the foetus as a "life" - I didn't so it was surprisingly easy to feel nothing about it.

I always knew that if I did get pregnant I wouldn't go through with it. I was very hot on contraception. Unfortunately it failed.

Like other posters, I was pregnant, I didn't want to be pregnant, so I had an operation that stopped me being pregnant. And yes, I felt happy when I left the clinic that I was no longer pregnant.

I didn't think of my pregnancy as a life as such, so I was able to have a termination without agonising before or afterwards about what an awful thing I had done, or what a potential child might have been like.

Funny that Lucy. Every woman I know who has admitted to having an abortion (myself included) has not felt at all guilty or conflicted about that decision. Though to be fair, none of us went to "pro life pregnancy counsellors" because we all knew that the feeling guilty about abortion trope would have been applied. We also didn't access pre-abortion counselling because we are adults who knew what we wanted and didn't feel the need to have someone try and talk us out of our decision.

That's not to say some women feel conflicted, but I suspect it's far, far less than the self referrals you see.

Your arguments sound suspiciously like Nadine Dorries ones i.e. abortion providers are out to make a profit and all women really need to avoid abortions (which they secretly don't want) is some nice probably religiously based person to allow them the time and space to realise that their true path as a woman is to be a mother no matter what the cost.

lucyandpoppy thoughtprovoking and rather moving post. You call yourself pro-life but seem not entirely against abortion in some circumstances?

Annunziata I would have killed myself if I had been forced to continue with my pregnancy. So, as far as your beliefs are concerned, what would be worse - terminating the pregnancy or suicide?

I also didn't see the foetus as a life, because it wasn't. I'm assuming that the people who do are likely to be religious types, quite possibly Catholics? Sorry if I'm stereotyping.
And no, you can't be a feminist and be pro forced birth. It's obvious isn't it? If you think you're a feminist and don't believe in abortion rights, then you've misunderstood what feminism is.

Lucyandpoppy, I imagine that most adult women who have capacity don't actually need a doctor to decide whether it's best for them to have a child or not! Can you hear what you're saying?!

Lucy But there are often no "better" options when you are pregnant and don't want the child under any circumstances.

The best support in the world would not have made me want to go ahead with my pregnancy. I WOULD have gone ahead and committed suicide if I could not have had access to a termination.

And some people may not feel they made the right choice but when I realised I was pregnant, I went into practical mode and knew I had to get rid of it. I had no counselling, my GP referred me and I went to the clinic and that was that. But there would have been no point in wasting resources on that with me as I only had two choices. Luckily I was able to terminate so I didn't have to resort to anything more drastic.

TheCow I agree with absolutely everything you have said on this thread!

I also didn't see the foetus as a life, because it wasn't. I'm assuming that the people who do are likely to be religious types, quite possibly Catholics? Sorry if I'm stereotyping.

I think you are probably stereotyping. I've had a few early miscarriages...if that counts or explains as to why I viewed it as a developing life.

I think one of the points that lucy's post made was that a lot of doctors just sign off the abortion request without stopping to actually look at it.

You can argue that it shouldnt need a doctor's say so, but that is a matter of how the process goes; it may be wrong, but then it needs amending. But I kind of agree that if that is the procedure then it shouldnt just be dismissed.

and I really agree that better post abortion care should be available. Can take it up or not as you choose, but having it available is important.

Where I live, the abortion clinic counselling seems to be taken rather seriously. When I rang up in the early stages of pregnancy to arrange an appointment they were pretty well trying to dissuade me. I didn't go ahead with the abortion for an entirely different reason, but I was surprised at their approach.

I am pro life and a feminist no your not you are a mix and match a bit like a life time RC who shouts it from the roof tops but only follows the bits they want.

1) The woman often (often not always) doesn't actually want to have an abortion but feels like there is no other choice/way out of her situation

How much of this is real and how much is society pressure they say they don't want to because they feel they have to. Not disputing that for many women coercion has been involved and that its not an ideal.

I'm also pretty sure we don't have high volumes of women who intentionally get pregnant just so they can have a TOP but its a bit like the breast feeding line isn't it? "I wanted to BF but I couldn't" very few women actually admit they didn't want to (general disclaimer that yes many women really can't but its a small amount no where near the huge amounts that say this) ,they don't admit it because they don't want to be judged and we put so much pressure on them.Am I going to walk into my appointment and say " I really want a termination it's perfectly ideal and oh so delightful" of course I'm not I am going to be quite matter of fact about it but the law requires me to disclose my reasons, I think it shouldn't.

2) Women, myself included in this, can feel depressed, anxious and in a state of grieving after an abortion. This is often dismissed as pro life nonsense but I think it is doing women a great disservice to say that they are unlikely to feel any emotional pain/need emotional support after an abortion

It is pro life nonsense to say or imply they should feel that way.or that they are unusual in not doing so. We have a right to feel however we feel.

3) The lack of pre-abortion/unplanned pregnancy counselling is absolutely shocking. As someone that has had an abortion I was never offered counselling and feel that so many women would benefit from having a sit down with someone that is impartial (ie not the clinic, who benefit financially from the women choosing to have an abortion) and talking through her options. Often when you find out that you have an unplanned pregnancy you go into a state of shock and just go onto auto-pilot to do whatever you can to get through the situation and it is only later when you think about it rationally that you may realise that you did not make the best choice. I can't speak for the organisation as a whole, but I did train as an unplanned pregnancy counselor and the course was fantastic, non-bias and helped us to help the client look at all the options. All of the people on the course did it because they care about women, as volunteers unlike the people from the clinic who are getting paid for it

I do agree that the services should be more available to owe who need them but they should be on request and not forced.

4) There are some extreme loopholes in the law around abortion. Under the Abortion Act 2 doctors need to certify that an abortion is in your best interests under 1 of the 3 possible critera - most are done under the criterea that it is in the interests of the physical or mental health of the mother and that having an abortion would be better/less damaging than not having an abortion. Funny thing is, I, like most people in abortion clinics never saw one doctor never mind two. The doctors that signed off the paperwork never met me in person simply signed the paperwork to make the abortion legal without ever meeting me, talking to me or looking at my circumstance and whether it was in my interests. This is typical for many or all abortion clinics in the UK. The doctors sit in the back room signing off piles of paper without so much as a second glance on whether the woman does actually fulfill the critera for the abortion to be legal whereas the women only actually ever speaks to nurses

I won't need to see 2 doctors either a piece of paper with the information on it should be enough.

I love women and I feel that they should have better options than an abortion, should be properly supported through unplanned pregnancy and if they do choose to have an abortion to have better aftercare

Many times abortion is the better option with most situations the women herself is best placed to make this call.

I'm a bit shocked by some of the posters on this thread. I really couldn't ever support the idea of abortion at 40 weeks. I can kind of see the point you're trying to make with it in that you're supporting women regardless but if you are a mother (as I think most of you are) then I really can't see how you could approve of a full term pregnancy being ended. It's all very well saying that you support the idea in theory because you don't think it wouldn't ever happen but that doesn't mean much. I don't think my feelings on this mean that I can't call myself a feminist. I actually think if that criteria is set for what it means to be a feminist then it's not going to do the feminist movement any favours!

Oh and I agree with a lot of Lucy's points about counselling being substandard and doctors just ticking boxes rather than actually speaking to the woman. I think that needs to be improved.

Thanks Abbey I feel very strongly about the subject!
Mammuzzammia, sorry to hear that, but I still wouldn't see your wanted pregnancies as a life, you're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine. The danger comes when people who think like you try to curtail the freedoms of other women for some reason. And there often is a religious reason behind it, although not in your case I accept. And I don't mean to be rude but I can't really see the connection between the sad loss of your wanted pregnancy and the termination of my unwanted one? Why is that relevant?

Nobody is saying that to be a feminist you have to support full term abortions they are saying that they do. What some people myself included are saying is that you cannot support forced birth and removal of the ability to terminate and be a feminist the two view points are not compatible.

And fwiw the law as it stands now under very limited circumstances does allow for TOP to term.

I think it's more about not restricting women's choices oops and putting caveats on them. If you are pro choice you are pro choice. No ifs or buts

Not I'm pro choice but only up until 20/16/8 weeks
Or I'm pro choice but only if the woman was raped or abused
Or I'm pro choice but only if the woman concerned self flagellates enough.

It's not that pro choicers are advocating aborting a full term foetus it's more that they don't want women's choices to come with terms and conditions.

And I don't mean to be rude but I can't really see the connection between the sad loss of your wanted pregnancy and the termination of my unwanted one? Why is that relevant?

Yes you are being rude, not least because I never did try to make a connection between a wanted pregnancy and a termination of a pregnancy.

Why did you mention your miscarriages then? Genuine question

Idontusuallynamechange but an earlier poster said that she thought that applying any condition to your prochoice position e.g. a time limit, meant that you were supporting forced birth so that's why she supports it up until birth.

Just read your post enormouse so maybe it was you I'm thinking of. So you think that if you don't support abortion to 40 weeks then you can't be pro-choice? If you say that you support something (Even if it is only in theory) then surely you have to be ok with it if it actually happening. Would you really be ok with it? I'm really struggling to understand how anyone could be ok with it if it did actually happen.

I would have to disagree with you Enormouse. I am pro choice, but with conditions. I think the law has got it right at the moment, that you can access a TOP under the age of viability, or extremely rarely over it. I do think it's awful for you that you have to travel to be able to acres a termination.

I would support the mother in having the choice to do that (abort to term) if she felt it was best for her.

I trust women to know what is best for them and their body.

Just because you support someone's right to make that choice doesn't mean you have to be gleeful about it.

Absolutely Mouse Conditions are very dangerous. Do we refuse someone because they didn't use contraception? Or because they had a termination 10 years before? It's just another way of people limiting the options available to women.

Whether or not people see a pregnancy as a life, surely we all agree that the woman herself is a human with rights? Most of us are lucky enough to live in a country where we have the right to decide what happens to our own bodies.

I think some people can't fully understand that other people feel differently about some subjects, they project their own reaction and cannot understand another person may have a different reaction.

Absolutely Mouse Conditions are very dangerous. Do we refuse someone because they didn't use contraception? Or because they had a termination 10 years before? It's just another way of people limiting the options available to women.

Really agree with this. As soon as we start categorising abortion into those that have, what is deemed by society, to be a valid reason, and those that don't we're in a very dangerous area IMO.

The ONLY important thing with regards to the decisiont to abort is that a woman of sound mind, is in possession of all the facts and has made the decision that is right for her.