to feel cheated that you can't actually have it all?

[ChocolateOrangeInASantaHat]

Many moons ago I was educated in a fantastically positive school, where as females we were taught that we could achieve anything a male could achieve and that if we worked hard enough and planned well enough, we could 'have it all' in life.

So now, with my collection of letters after my name, respectable job, 2 usually well-behaved children, lovely husband and a multitude of lists to keep life running smoothly, I'm slowly realising that it doesn't matter how hard I work or how meticulously I plan, unless I steal a bloody tardis I still can't have it all.

Feeling particularly bitter as was up all night with poorly child, who I then left with a relative to not miss work today (=feeling like rubbish mother) and then as I'd had no sleep I was not very productive at work (=also feeling like rubbish employee). Since others at my level are generally male and tend to have stay at home wives, this kind of feeling inadequate at both home and work doesn't tend to occur for them.

Honestly feeling like I should advise daughter to either:
a) marry rich man, get good prenup and focus on children/household or
b) be career driven and marry man who is happy to stay at home and focus on children/household.

AIBU to feel cheated that I can't 'have it all'? (NB in case lost in my sleep-deprivedness this is a --partially- tongue-in-cheek AIBU)

A male colleague has just been signed off with stress, because he felt as though he wasn't able to do a good enough job in any area of his life - he wasn't being a good dad, husband or employee.

Part of me (the dark and not at all empathetic corner of my soul) thought, 'huh, welcome to the club' but really it's a sign that men are increasingly feeling the pressure and a bit of a depressing one - how is it such a no win equation?

I was listening to people talking about gender dysphoria on R4 this morning. An endocrinologist was talking about changing hormones in preparation for the sex change operation and the affect this had on character. Female changing to male became more aggressive, more assertive and thought about sex a lot, apparently.

So yes, of course there are massive biological differences between the sexes which affect the way we behave.

Yes Exit, but people argue the opposite till the cows come home. It's considered anti feminist to think that men and women are anything but the same in every minute detail.

my husband shared the childcare with me in the early years and then recently when he was unemployed for 2 years, I worked full time. This last year he has worked from home and I have worked 28 hours pw for the NHS. Yesterday, I had an operation on my ankle and the same day my 8 year old had a kidney scan in a different hospital. Despite the fact that she sees more of her dad than me, she cried and cried that I could not come with her for her kidney scan, so much so that post anaesthetic I was desperately trying to get discharged in time to go with them. It may be a generalisation and it may be conditioning but if it is conditioning,it is very deep rooted. Even as an adult when I was at work and started miscarrying, my one thought was that I needed to get to my mums and I would be alright and safe.I love that my kids feel that too.Feminists often are perplexed about the fact that not all women see themselves as feminists and I think this is one of the core reasons why.There are some women who embrace motherhood and the caring/nurturing/homemaking role and although it can be boring/repetitive/frustrating at times, it is what we want to do and be and where we see our natural gifting. It feels insulting to be told we are just conditioned to be that way and we should be fighting to be out at work etc. I speak as someone who has a job I absolutely love but if my husband earned a salary that we could afford to live on, there is no way I would work whilst my kids were needing me around. And if I needed to do something to stimulate my brain whilst they were at school,it would be in the voluntary sector using my training and skills.

So women who work and men who share childcare, look after DC when I'll, are somehow denying "biology"?

One can be a feminist and not do paid work. Or do paid work FT.

the problem is when people seek to justify their personal choices or situation with arguments that they are somehow more natural, caring or womanly.

Can you ever have it all? Not fully no.

It's like saying can you have your hair long AND short, well yes and no, because if you go mid-length it's neither completely long nor short.

You can't enjoy the benefits of being single AND he benefits of being in a fulfilling relationship. I read on a thread recently someone complaining that they are stuck in a marriage and an affair too. Some wise old sage pointed out you have to choose one or the other. The poster complained that it would be a loss of whichever one was given up, but received a lot of "you can't have it both ways".

Having said all of that I think there comes a time, perhaps when children are at school all day, when you can be part time as well as running your home and family in such a way as to jiggle both balls efficiently.

It's sad that our modern world often doesn't afford many people that choice freely though. All in the name of progress too.

The expectation of men doing precisely 50% is fine, everything being equal. But everything is never equal.

I think I know where women who want a "wife", or even just a 50-percenter, went wrong. They should have married someone who earned less than them and wanted children more than them. In the hypothetical universe where most women did this, it would be the men talking about the problem of having it all, and complaining about the useless selfish women they were married to, who wouldn't do their share.

(Earning more means your job isn't the disposable one, if one has to be disposed of. Wanting children less means you can say no to them, unless the more highly-motivated one agrees to bear a disproportionate share of the childcare.)

Er theoretician not sure why things can't be equal?

Me and my DP earn pretty much the same by the time you even out company pension contribution / car allowances etc. We do 50:50 childcare and around the house. Although we do also buy in a lot of help, nanny, cleaner etc.

I wanted kids more than him for number 1 but then when it has come to no.2 he is the one pushing it (er, no pun intended!).

But the assumption from others makes this a tricky set up. Despite the fact that all the contact with the pre-school which DD starts in January has come from DP, all I did was bowl up for the tour, they still contact me EVERY TIME. Their forms don't have a 'key contact' just a 'mother contact details', 'father contact details' and they must default to calling the mother. I get that this is because it is the norm but it so annoyingly self perpetuating.

Surrey. . To some extent, yes

We can all find anecdotal examples. I remember when my oldest was in hospital for an operation and was NOT crying for her mother. If you spend as much time with your nanny and father as mother then you bond with them all and don't need "mother" over the others.

Of course men and women h ave some differences but far too many people use those for their own agenda to keep women down and earning very little. In practice most women do work and always have and are also good parents as are men.

I certainly recommend earning 10x what your husband does. It rocks.

I really think it comes down to what the concept means to you. In Norway, there is shared parental leave for a year, then highly subsidised childcare from the age of 1. Most parents work full-time, there are virtually no SAHP. So, it is the perfect, equal society, and this is celebrated and accepted. Women can be just as successful with their career, there are no obstacles with regards to childcare and societal expectations. I found it a bit sad though that it is not acceptable to be at home with your kids, it is an alien concept. It also means that there are no kids around for playdates etc from the age of 1. So I don't think there is no universal answer to having it all, you just need to figure out your own priorities and what works for your family.

Yes, but greengrow, you're not married. So you don't earn more than your husband.
And I find the idea that it's good to spend as much time with your nanny as your mother frankly quite odd and depressing.
I think I'd have just opted for a chocolate lab.

No of course not surrey. But I do believe that children have a closer attachment to their mothers when they're small and that is down to biology. That's not to say that fathers are somehow less important, not at all, but just play a different, equally as important, role.

Dancer - It is not true if a man does majority from birth. It is what dh has done and I do not believe the biology reasoning in the slightest

Aren't we programmed hormonally to care? Then when the menopause hits we stop caring.

It's great. I don't give a fuck anymore.

Maybe, having it all is determined by being happy with "all" you do have.
I don't mean settling for second best in anything, or making huge compromises, but just that you are naturally happy with what you have and the choices you've made.

Greengrow

I know its each to their own, but no way would I have accepted my dc spending time with a nanny, let alone the same amount of time as they spent with me.
Spending time and raising dc is the reason I chose to have them in the first place.

Green grow, the nanny that your children formed such an incredible bond with.

Are they still in touch?

MN bingo!

I agree with Greengrow. Some women wonder why they are tired and have to do everything and its due to them having the type of outdated attitudes like on this thread. I am glad its not me as they are clearly getting mugged off.

ExitPursuedByABear
Female changing to male became more aggressive, more assertive and thought about sex a lot, apparently.

So yes, of course there are massive biological differences between the sexes which affect the way we behave.

Of course an individual receiving hormone treatment as part of a sex change process will feel different, compared to how they previously felt. But that example tells us nothing about hormonal differences (and the effect of hormones on individuals) between sexes. Your 'massive biological differences' conclusion is a complete non sequitur.

aliciaj
Some women wonder why they are tired and have to do everything and its due to them having the type of outdated attitudes like on this thread

Absolutely. Attitudes such as ExitPursuedByABears and others do nothing more than perpetuate the very thing being complained about. Depressing.

The biological theories appeal to a certain type of women. If you are the type to believe men are more assertive due to biology you are likely to not have confidence so will be walked all over in the home and have a low sex drive as you are tired or because you don't have the confidence to ask for what pleases you. When they see studies like this it makes them feel better if they think all men are arseholes.

When I stayed at home on maternity dh did every other night feed despite doing 12 hour days even though I breastfed for a long time. I am doing the same now he is off and I am working. My dds will not grow up to be in this kind of relationship as we are going to give them the confidence to want more whether they work or stay at home.

Don't know much about the biology of it all but in our home DD and DS want me more than DH. I am with them for about 5-10 hours Mon-Fri, DD is at school for about 25hrs a week and rest of their time is spent with our nanny and DH. This isn't something programmed into them either. When I was tending to DD at 3am last night she made a point to tell me that she misses me. Her teacher called me to tell me that DD does a lot better in school on the days I drop her off. On other days her behaviour is worse and she is far more challenging, with limited learning going on.

For those who say to be pick a better DH, I think that is talking ideals. DH was a very different person before we were married and two days after our wedding I had to have a serious sit down with him and gave him a kick up the behind. Neither DC were planned and our intention was to wait until about now to start a family. Instead now we have a DD (3) and DS (1.5). We have figured stuff out as we have gone on, not always making the right decisions.

What really doesn't help is having a MIL who perpetuates that her son is the messiah who should not be expected to do his fair share because he earns more. I know this can be taken as being extremely rude but she has no clue about our lifestyle. She is from a simple home where her father was a policeman and her mother worked part time at the local school cooking lunch. My MIL worked 30 hours a week as a home nurse and my FIL was a school janitor working 35 hours a week. OTOH, DH manages approx. $300 million of sales of pork into US restaurants and I am an auditor. It isn't that what they did was less than, it is just so very different and I want to punch her lights out/ scream at her/ throttle her when she puts stupid ideas in DH's head about him not doing his fair share. Thank goodness she is 3000 miles away.

Alicia, you do make me laugh.
Low self drive and lack of confidence from noticing differences between men and women?

Self drive?
Sex drive?
(but self drive aids the sex drive on occasion )