To ask if you don't do Santa/ Elf in the shelf you don't spoil it for others?

[CatWreathkeith]

Last year Dneice was told matter of factly by a 4yo at school there is no such thing as Father Christmas and it's your parents. In reception.

This year another child has told her that you can buy an EOTS from Amazon, because her mum has shown her it.

Why? Why would you do that? Why not say there are only a few elves that get to leave the North Pole and we didn't get one?

Or if your child wants one that badly get a cheap one from the pound shop

Grrr

I think should be put in the thread title.

This thread has ruined my Christmas

I doubt my son would even know what the elf was - I only know because I've seen references to it on a local parents' Facebook page and even then I thought it was just a Christmas decoration.

Surfsup muppets.

Words fail me.

I shouldn't bite - but I do EVERY year...

I am not unimaginative nor am I joyless. I am not po-faced, nor am I over analytical, or sneery, or disapproving. I have not ruined my children's lives .

We just don't do santa. ( the majority of the whole world's population does not actually do santa)

We still have an advent calender, and a tree, and lights, and presents, and feasting, and family to share it all. Why do we need to involve an imaginary other - our Christmas is magical and imaginative, and full of fun and laughter.

Just no santa (or elves, or Christmas elephants or whatever else will become the next thing of the decade). We talk about the stories, just don't invest them with this all important aura.

You want the "extra" magic, go for it, but don't insult me or tell me I'm doing it wrong.

Shopgirl you were the one who said "I'd rather my kids grew to know the deep seated love and care that surrounds them, than think it is all magicked up from some imaginary guy from the North Pole." and that you "refuse to engage in the crap".

So perhaps if you don't want people telling you that you're 'doing it wrong' you would also return that?

I think it is equally unimaginative and joyless to believe that a child's Christmas is ruined if some 4 year old says Santa doesn't exist. What is the rest of Christmas like if it's success is so dependent on children believing for as long as possible that Santa is a real person?

Children are perfectly capable of enjoying a magical childhood without all the adults pretending that fairies and elves and Santa and the Easter bunny are absolutely real. They spend much of their life in a middle world of make-believe and play. The concept that any of this is spoilt because somebody might suggest that it isn't all entirely real is very odd indeed.

You create magic by playing the game, not by attempting to persuade children that it is real. You can continue playing that game with your children until they have their own children, as long as they enjoy playing, without anybody caring whether it is real.

We have an elf, it is a bit of Christmas fun and will be a 'tradition' in our house for the next few years, much like many houses have different traditions around Christmas, like a Christmas Eve visit to the pantomime or another such thing. I only recently heard of the Christmas eve hamper, I think it was last year and on here, then a couple of friends mentioned it. For me, that was a step too far in the giving stakes and seems pointless etc, but it is up to the individual family to do as they please, I wouldn't slate someone for doing or moan about it. Last year I did get mine new pj's and have done the same this year, that way I can guarantee they have a matching clean set each for the photos on Christmas Day.

Seriously Footlight?! Lighten up, if anyone's being po faced around here, you're doing a good impression of it lol

Want to elaborate on your disapproval a bit?

"Also the average age that children stop believing in FC is apparently seven. I think of still-believing ten year olds as one of those 'Only On Mumsnet' things."

I was 11 - I always thought Santa had to exist because my parents couldn't afford the presents I got (my mum just saved all year and collected stuff all year to spread the financial load).

Ds similar logic: Santa puts all sort of chocolate/sugary goodies in my stocking that you (parents) would never let me have, so he must exist. I just said that when you stop believing he stops coming and you get all your gifts from your parents (in our house some come from Santa and some from us, and it was the same for me) which isn't untrue.

However, dh is the youngest of 4 children and can't remember ever really believing. Maybe it's an only child thing as they don't have any older siblings to spoil the magic.

"What is the rest of Christmas like if it's success is so dependent on children believing for as long as possible that Santa is a real person?"

It's brilliant and made even better by that lovely magical belief in Santa that many parents do not want ruined for their children by someone dispelling the lovely story too soon. Is that okay with you?

My friend's 11 year old still believes, as does my 9 year old.

That is absolutely fine with me. I am glad that you are having a lovely Christmas.

But how could it be ruined? How can the story be dispelled?

It is magical because it is magical and make-believe - real or not real is irrelevant. Even at 43 I could not prove or disprove that Santa is coming to your house sometime on the night of the 24th, so I can't understand why an adult would be so flummoxed by a child being told by another child that Santa is not real.

At 4 my child might equally pick up the idea that Australia isn't real, and they might tell your child - that isn't going to ruin Australia for your child is it? Neither of them would be old enough to really have a concept of what Australia is in the way that an adult would because they don't have the breadth of knowledge to make comparisons.

At some point children develop more of a sense of real and not real, but for most young children I don't think they care. They spend much of their life playing imaginary games, believe their parents are infallible and have little concept of the world beyond their limited experience. The magic is completely in your power. Children stop believing because they grow up, but many will continue to believe long after somebody has told them the 'truth' and are very happy to continue playing the game even when they don't really believe either.

I think the most likely thing to dispel the magic would be an adult having a strop about 'non-believing' children, because that isn't very christmassy at all.

It is magical because parents and GPs go to great lengths to build up the story and capture the child's imagination with it.

If you personally don't want to do that then fair enough; but you have to understand that in other family's it's an important part of Christmas and that in Great Britain it is a very very common and widespread tradition so it is unfair to decide that because you don't go along with it, you're not going to make sure that your child can't spoil it for anyone else.

It is magical because parents and GPs go to great lengths to build up the story and capture the child's imagination with it.

Which is lovely and magical because that shows that there are people who love and care for your child.

However, most children can maintain a very active imaginary world all by themselves. They don't need people to convince them that their imaginary world is actually real and they will persist in believing in the face of evidence to the contrary. That is the magic of childhood.

It must be very stressful to believe that Christmas magic can be diminished by a child blabbing the 'truth'.

merrymouse I wish more of the school parents where we are agreed with you - overheard people muttering about my son again "that little had better keep quiet, I'll kill him if he tells my kids!" and similar. I don't actually think this one would kill my 4 year old, but not nice when neither he nor I are deaf and threats are being said right behind us. Apparently I should also "not bring him in to school in December" if I had any decency!

Yes it is horrible if the magic you and many many other parents is destroyed or questioned because of one child in a class blabbing the truth.

many many other parents created

I personally dislike the idea of using gifts as a threat. It puts more importance on them then there should be on Christmas. It does go against the Christmas spirit.

But moreover, it sort of shoots yourself in the foot. What will you do when the kids act atrocious the other parts of the year when you don't have Santa to threaten with?

Not to be sanctimonious, there's no such thing as a bad kid. Just ineffective parents.

Sorry Muppets where you joking? I thought for a minute there you were condoning someone cancelling Santa because their kids were bad!
Apologies.

there's no such thing as a bad kid. Just ineffective parents.

^yy to this^

Ah the traditional Christmas death threat Ebwy. Although what with Herod and everything it is a traditional part of the season!

Sorry I do think it's wrong to take away part of Christmas as a punishment.

All kids behave appallingly in December - it's a combination of everything. The hype around Christmas from all angles, the constant drip drip of sugar and sweets, the fact it's cold so they don't get out as much, the end-of-term fatigue which is somehow worse at the end of the first term of the new year, the dark mornings and the excitement of still being up when it gets dark, cold makes you hungrier but most kids aren't big fans of the filling winter foods like stews and pies, they're excited about snow/ice/frost and haven't got bored of that yet, and low-level coughs/colds have an impact too.

You just manage it like at other times of the year, perhaps even let go a bit and join in with the giddiness. They won't think it's suddenly fine to misbehave if you let a few things go because they go back to normal as soon as they're back to school in January.

You just have to treat the whole run up to Christmas as one big party, basically, and manage behaviour expectations accordingly.

It is fascinating when some people insist that their traditions deserve respect but are not willing to extend that same courtesy to others. I couldn't care less what others choose to do: Santa, elf, Christkind, whatever. I'm sure that all of these traditions are meaningful to different families. Splendid. But to turn around and claim that anyone who celebrates differently is joyless, unimaginative, po-faced, etc. shows a distinct lack of tolerance for others. In this season of peace on earth, goodwill toward all. Ironic, that.

I personally dislike the use of Santa as threat. In most cases, it's an empty threat (which is hardly a useful means to any greater end). And if parents actually carry through with a threat to cancel Xmas, that is even worse IMO.

You really can't expect a 6 year old or really any age child to go along with this. They say it how it is.

I think you're twisting things a bit there Elk. It is not the fact that they celebrate Christmas differently that was being criticised; but that they themselves were criticising parents who 'lie' about Santa, and who don't teach their children that it is parents who buy the presents and should be thanked; while also being dismissive of the problem of children brought up not to believe in Santa telling children whose parents do continue this tradition that he's not real - giving a 'so what.' type reply in some cases.

That is what is joyless, po faced and unimaginative.

No twisting involved. Someone even suggested that parents who choose not to do the Santa thing are ruining their children's childhood.