to think that burlesque is not 'empowering'

[bauhausfan]

...but just women having been brainwashed into thinking that being sexy (ie fitting into that male stereotype of frilly undies, sexual availability, coyness etc) is their choice when actually it is just brain washing by the patriarchy. Just like breast implants -'I'm doing it for myself' - well, no, you're not. You're doing it so you can feel happier because you now fit society's pre-conceived idea of sexy/attractive.

I feel really depressed by the number of intelligent women I know who are buying into this bullshit. If I'm going to celebrate feminine power, I'd rather it was through women who have worked their way into the top echelons of society - not someone called Kitty or Dita waving their baps around. I feel despair - what happened to the 70s feminist dream?

It is a shame that we have moved on from empowerment meaning success in politics, business, society and now it means simply being so 'comfortable in your skin' that you're happy to take your clothes off.

The way I see it is that being comfortable in your own skin is a prerequisite for gaining other more influential roles in society. If you are not comfortable in your own skin, public life is more likely to be a challenge.

I think women are their own worst enemies sometimes. Woman feels 'empowered', get's told no you can't possibly feel empowered because it doesn't benefit the rest of us.

I'm sure burlesque can be fun/a laugh/an enjoyable thing to do. It's not 'empowering'.

You would never get a group of blokes on a stag do doing a 'burlesque session' as the 'Saturday afternoon activity'. They do stuff like driving tanks, go karting or shooting AK47s whilst women wrestle in mud next to them in Bratislava. But it's definitely the burlesque that is 'empowering'

Well, maybe we need a new word then.
I can't contact the guys who's video it is but try youtubing 'boylesque'. There's loads of videos, they even have a designated festival.

I'm with you OP.
I've worked (backstage) with burlesque performers for years.
They are no more empowered than strippers.

They might hold the reins of their own business but as soon as the wrinkles start to form or gravity gets its way, bookings will be a distant dream.

It's all about what you look like. Almost anyone can be dolled up to look amazing for the punters.

But without their makeup those women are not confident or sassy at all.

I'm happy it's benefited her too, but WHY has it? That's the question

We could delve into this at a few levels, social, psychological etc etc but I think at it's more simplest level she wanted to feel beautiful. And being with those women, embracing her 'curves' (which burlesque seems to be big on) allowed her to feel sexy and start loving her body for what it is not what it's expected to be. There were no men involved with this by the way, just women all dancing, getting dressed up, having a laugh together.

I know intrinsically burlesque was and still is in some forms, for male entertainment. But I don't think there's anything wrong with women taking it back and enjoying it for themselves.

The black women pre-civil war example is ridiculous.

If they were earning a wage then they were clearly in a considerably more powerful position than they were when they were owned slaves earning fuck all. On that basis, there was some "empowerment". They didn't of course become "powerful", which is a different thing.

It's also disingenuous to try and pretend that men are not also valued for their looks and physiques in this society. Of course they bloody are. Anyone who can say with a straight face that most male dancers/models perform fully clothed needs to open their eyes and look. They don't.

What's one of the most iconic advertising images of recent years....apart from "Hello Boys"? Beckham's lunch box in his CKs.

That's not to say that there isn't an inequality, but it's not as gaping as the faux feminists on here would like to pretend.

And sorry, OP, but it "depresses" you? No, it doesn't.

I'm not criticising women who do it, I'm criticising the way it is marketed to women, as a replacement for real power

I understand that completely and think you're right, I just think we belittle women and how they feel when we're telling them that how they feel isn't valid.

But, Grays, if your friend hadn't been brought up to believe that her value is conditional on the way she looks, she might not have had those problems in the first place. All the burlesque is doing is making her see herself as more acceptable/sexual. Not that her increased happiness isn't a good thing - of course it is. But treating a problem with more of the thing that created it doesn't seem particularly sensible to me.

Worming your cat is making a small but significant contribution to the sum total of cat welfare and is therefore a Good Thing.

'Loving your body for what is it, not what it's expected to be'.
This. Very much this.
Also, what it can do.

Amethyst, please tell my cat that, he disagrees. With his claws.

We are worth more than that, and we should be aiming for real power when we use the word 'empowerment'.

By selling our souls to the patriarchy? By trying to be pretend men?

I understand that amethyst but unfortunately we live in a society in which this is a major factor in how women, and men, feel about themselves and nothing is going to change that anytime soon - although I think we're making steps in the right direction. So with that in mind, we need things to help people accept themselves and be happy with themselves and their bodies - obviously why we continue to chip away at the reason why we're like this in the first place.

If feeling bad about how she looked is the symptom of a broken society, then in this case burlesque wasn't a cure, but it was a symptom reliever.

My opinion of course, I don't blame anyone for feeling differently especially after reading the points made but I do think it's sad that it apparently 'depresses' the OP.

But if I were to do pole dancing classes then it would be with all women. How is that me doing it for men? It would be for me as I would enjoy it. I wouspmt be putting a show on for anyone.

Of course burlesque isn't empowering. It may make some women feel better about their bodies which is great, but a different thing. What would be empowering in this context is for these women to make their peace with their bodies in a way that didn't involve seeking validation from others that they are in some way attractive.

I find it empowering, I get to act different and be someone else for an hour and I love it. I'm not mum who washes, cooks dinner, does the school run etc. I'm being someone who I find empowering and confident.

I feel sexy, happy and comfortable. Some people like it, some don't like yourself OP....and because I like it, it doesn't make me a prostitue who is conforming to men's fantasies or whatever. I do it because I LIKE IT!

Everyone's different

I agree with a great many of your points empire.
I don't believe that choosing to dance burlesque should prevent any of that.
My concerns on stage should not be transposed onto a business woman, a politician or even me off stage.
Again, it's context.

I think society is happy to sell women 'empowerment' because it is preferable to them getting actual power.

Strip if you want to, I don't care. But I do care about the word 'empowerment' and how it has been used to placate females and keep them performing femininity.

Nrtft, but I find the sneeriness and condescension displayed on page one alone pretty unsisterly and fucking depressing.
"Stripping for fat goths" - really? So it's OK to sneer at overweight people with unconventional dress sense, as long as it's done to rebel against the patriarchy?

People who do that are no better feminists than those women they look down on.

Rotten isn't it widow? It's always the same insults too. Sing us a new tune, eh?