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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that burlesque is not 'empowering'

300 replies

bauhausfan · 06/12/2014 12:03

...but just women having been brainwashed into thinking that being sexy (ie fitting into that male stereotype of frilly undies, sexual availability, coyness etc) is their choice when actually it is just brain washing by the patriarchy. Just like breast implants -'I'm doing it for myself' - well, no, you're not. You're doing it so you can feel happier because you now fit society's pre-conceived idea of sexy/attractive.

I feel really depressed by the number of intelligent women I know who are buying into this bullshit. If I'm going to celebrate feminine power, I'd rather it was through women who have worked their way into the top echelons of society - not someone called Kitty or Dita waving their baps around. I feel despair - what happened to the 70s feminist dream?

OP posts:

AnyFucker · 07/12/2014 10:42

Not every choice a woman makes is a feminist one simply because she is female

I would fight to the end for every woman to have the choice, however I reserve my right to analyse it with the lens of feminism and find it wanting

I also reserve my right to take the piss

solidussnake · 08/12/2014 14:07

"men don't have to strip to own their sexuality"
oh please. I don't have to strip to have mine either. EVERYTHING you do in life unless forced is your choice. these women do feel empowered. I would feel empowered too. but, i already think I am. I already think i'm good looking without taking my clothes off but i would LOVE to do burlesque because yes it is sexy and I look up to Dita Von Teese and would love to be like her.
no burlesque used to be like a comedy show, now it's glorified stripping.
Come on guys, we're all allowed to have a sexuality, and own it, and preach it without giving a shit what anybody thinks!
Unless a woman is forced into porn, stripping, or doing.. anything? it's a choice. Everything we do in life is a choice.

Bluestocking · 08/12/2014 14:22

I'm glad FaFoutis asked the question about wittiness - it's something I've wondered about to. Perhaps a burlesque fan could link to a youtube clip of witty burlesque?

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 08/12/2014 15:12

the idea of effectively taking my clothes off in front of those I work with is more like a bad dream than an empowering experience.

Quite.

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 08/12/2014 15:13

Sorry, the above was a quote from further up the thread!

Bulbasaur · 08/12/2014 15:26

Whether you like it or not looks matter. A lot. They have always mattered and they always will. Every society has people trying to fit their cultural beauty standards.

Looks are not everything, but they are important. Just like money, it is important to have, but money alone won't make you happy.

It's a bit disingenuous to pretend looks are just a patriarchal standard and therefore shouldn't matter.

So yes, feeling beautiful is empowering and a confidence boost. Burlesque

Bulbasaur · 08/12/2014 15:28

wtf.. it cut off the end.

Burlesque is empowering because it gives a confidence boosts and puts the woman in charge of her own sexiness.

Smartleatherbag · 08/12/2014 15:36

I agree op. It's bloody depressing that this kind of shit passes for empowerment. Right up there with gok wan and his bangers crap.

HelloitsmeFell · 08/12/2014 17:01

Burlesque is empowering because it gives a confidence boosts and puts the woman in charge of her own sexiness.

Well like I said before if empowerment means you thoroughly enjoy sexually teasing men in the knowledge that are not allowed to touch you, and you control how far it goes and how much they see, then Yay! Good for you! What a breakthrough for women everywhere, not to be dragged off the stage and raped as a lesson to all who would flaunt themselves.

I am not against women titillating men but to say that it is empowering to be parading yourself as an unobtainable object of sexual desire is just plain ridiculous. Unless, as a woman, you measure your worth in sexual attractiveness alone.

Bulbasaur · 08/12/2014 17:07

What a breakthrough for women everywhere, not to be dragged off the stage and raped as a lesson to all who would flaunt themselves.

What the fuck are you going on about? Lay off the sauce girlfriend.

Empower: make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.

That's the dictionary definition.

Yes, dressing in a way that makes you feel confident is empowering. Taking charge of your own sexuality is empowering. You want to go on about the patriarchy, the patriarchy says women may only be sexy when they say so. Otherwise women must be modest, lest they be sluts. So dressing sexy on your terms because you want to can be.

Not because you're trying to be a cock tease.

Christ on a bike.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/12/2014 17:15

I can't opine on proper burlesque shows because I've never been to one. But a friend was quite upset at the pressure that was put on her to go to a burlesque class as part of a hen weekend. It put her in a pretty awkward position - either take your clothes off for a quiet life or risk offending the bride
This might not be the fault of burlesque, and is obviously mainly the fault of the silly chief bridesmaid who organised it without thinking it might not be everybody's cup of tea, but it is also the fault of a culture that idealises taking your clothes off as a route to empowerment. How could anyone not want to be empowered, after all?

squoosh · 08/12/2014 17:27

I went on a hen weekend where a pole dancing lesson was part of the itinerary. I took myself off and had a glass of wine and read a magazine while they got on with it.

mummybare · 08/12/2014 17:30

Hmm, well of course being pressurised to take your clothes off isn't empowering.

But, on the other hand, I did a burlesque class on my hen do and there was no taking off of clothes. We had a couple of drinks, dressed up in feathers and long gloves and whatnot and learnt a few dance moves. DM and DMiL joined in and it was not weird at all. I wouldn't call it empowering, but neither was it sleazy/degrading. It was just a bit of fun.

So I guess it's all a bit open to interpretation...

Latara · 08/12/2014 17:32

Women in Burlesque costumes look very much like the pin-up girls of the 1940s to me - the ones that used to get painted on the side of U.S bomber planes in the war.

I always though Burlesque was actually stripping 1940s-style.

Feminism didn't exist in the 1940s sadly.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/12/2014 17:33

mummybare · 08/12/2014 17:40

Hah, I know! It's not DMiL's thing either. At all. I was very proud of her for giving it a go. Like I say, though, it was very tame

MyEmpireOfDirt · 08/12/2014 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Teeste · 08/12/2014 18:08

I've hung around the burlesque scene, been involved in a non-performing way, seen many shows etc. I don't think burlesque is usually empowering at all. The reason is because these women (and some men) don't get empowerment of any definition from it, they get validation. They get validation from other people that the way they look or present themselves is all good. The problem I have with it is that needing validation means your locus of control is external and that means it can be taken away from you in an instant. You can see it in the way their social media is full of pictures of them in various states of undress, costumes and poses even when not promoting anything - it all screams 'look at me, please love me!'.

If putting on all that makeup, hairspray and corsetry by yourself at home makes you feel empowered, go for it. If you're doing it for other people, you aren't in control of anything, you need them. Empowerment on this sort of personal level would involve an internal locus of control, which in this case, to me, would mean knowing your own worth and not giving a damn what anyone else thought of you, your body or your sexuality.

On the other hand, I'd consider (in my own very personal opinion) maybe 2 burlesque acts out of the many I've seen to be true celebrations of the female form, power and wit. It can be done, but the vast majority seems to just pull off some gloves, wiggle their bums and put their fingers to their mouths in mock surprise at some frilly knickers or nipple tassles. Meh.

Suzannewithaplan · 08/12/2014 18:38

To call it empowering suggests that the proper route to power (for women) is indirect and covert ie by having sexual power over the people who are really in control.
Ie the men. ?

HelloitsmeFell · 08/12/2014 18:43

I don't think burlesque is usually empowering at all. The reason is because these women (and some men) don't get empowerment of any definition from it, they get validation. They get validation from other people that the way they look or present themselves is all good. The problem I have with it is that needing validation means your locus of control is external and that means it can be taken away from you in an instant.

That is a fantastic post and it articulates exactly what I wanted to say, but better. Thank you.

Suzannewithaplan · 08/12/2014 18:52

So really it's just attention seeking behavior?

Bulbasaur · 08/12/2014 19:22

I'm confused as to how and why stripping in any form is supposed to 'empower' women to control their lives and claim their rights. Because it doesn't, and it is glaringly obvious that no one would claim that it does that for men. Why is that? Think about it.

Because men are "allowed" to strip and like sex with no negative consequences. In fact they are pressured into seeing sex as a be all end all. Women are not. Look at slut shaming, that would never happen to a man.

Society as a whole is afraid of women having control over their own sexuality and taking ownership of it. Society says women are not suppose to like sex, they put a value on a woman's virginity.

In any case, slut shaming these women and saying that it's actually degrading is also buying into the patriarchy where men are allowed to have control over their sexuality, and women are not. Really, it's just enforcing that women need to keep quiet about it and stay modest. It's just as repressive.

If both were allowed to have ownership of their sexuality, no one would even bat an eye lid at Burlesque dancers.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. I find different things empowering. But different people do things differently.

As a side note, confident sexy dressing to a woman is not a skimpy outfit. There is a very fine line between a sexy dress and a slutty dress, but women are expect to cover up as well.

Suzannewithaplan · 08/12/2014 19:33

confident sexy dressing to a woman is not a skimpy outfit. There is a very fine line between a sexy dress and a slutty dress
and there you are hoistwith ?yourown petard?
no?
Ie 'slut shaming '?

Bulbasaur · 08/12/2014 19:37

Suzannewithaplan I was talking about society's view in general, I'm sure you can gather that from previous sentences.

You very conveniently cut off the end of the sentence which reads, "but women are expect to cover up as well". That would imply that once again, I'm talking about general views and not a personal one.

It was a good try though. :)

Suzannewithaplan · 08/12/2014 19:44

But you made a distinction between sexy and slutty?

I left out 'but women are expected to cover up aswell' because it appeared not to make sense as part of the sentence

Tbh I did have a bit of trouble making sense of your post generally so may have missed the overall gist?

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