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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that burlesque is not 'empowering'

300 replies

bauhausfan · 06/12/2014 12:03

...but just women having been brainwashed into thinking that being sexy (ie fitting into that male stereotype of frilly undies, sexual availability, coyness etc) is their choice when actually it is just brain washing by the patriarchy. Just like breast implants -'I'm doing it for myself' - well, no, you're not. You're doing it so you can feel happier because you now fit society's pre-conceived idea of sexy/attractive.

I feel really depressed by the number of intelligent women I know who are buying into this bullshit. If I'm going to celebrate feminine power, I'd rather it was through women who have worked their way into the top echelons of society - not someone called Kitty or Dita waving their baps around. I feel despair - what happened to the 70s feminist dream?

OP posts:
skolastica · 06/12/2014 14:07

Or are you saying that 'power' is intrinsically male, so aiming for it = trying to be a man? hmm Bizarre.

I'm saying exactly that. Can't see why it's bizarre though.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 06/12/2014 14:09

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 06/12/2014 14:10

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Amethyst24 · 06/12/2014 14:13

Exactly - the only power you get by stripping is the endorsement of your physical attractiveness.

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:18

I actually only strip in a small percent of routines. There is so much more to it than that.
Lots of us don't strip at all.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 06/12/2014 14:21

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broccoliear · 06/12/2014 14:21

Suggesting that women have a choice about burlesque is akin to saying that prostitutes have a choice. Theoretically it's a free country, and we can all do more or less what we like, but I am shaped by my environment so my "choice" to become more empowered by doing burlesque is not free. It is shaped by centuries of stories about women, bodies, ownership, sex, titillation etc. I cannot escape that legacy. Similarly a prostitute could just get a normal job, except actually she's trapped by history and circumstance.

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:26

Depends. Dresses mostly, usually themed, like flapper dresses, rockabilly etc...
One girl I know performs in a onesie and I've got a new routine in a Victorian bathing costume. Whatever suits the routine and track.

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:27

I also wear a moustache sometimes. Smile

Meh84 · 06/12/2014 14:28

It is shaped by centuries of stories about women, bodies, ownership, sex, titillation etc

I don't think of it like this at all. It's just a bit of fun for me. I keep clothes on, too Smile

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 06/12/2014 14:29

It's like those 'boudoir shoots' and the way they are marketed at women to 'empower' them and 'make them feel comfortable in their own skin and give them self esteem'. The 'ideal birthday present for your man' etc etc.

How come your average 40 something bloke don't need to be photographed naked in very flattering light in carefully engineered poses that disguise all their bad bits, with any remaining flaws airbrushed out afterwards, in order to feel 'comfortable in their own skin'?

Interestingly, the things that truly 'empower' women (eg. things that men simply cannot do) are not valued by society at all. I mean what could be more empowering that growing an entire life inside you, and then being their sole source of life and nutrition for the first few months outside the womb as well (I bottlefed both mine by the way, before anyone starts). Pregnant women are mostly just seen as a PITA in many respects, and are treated as vessels who must be dictated to (don't eat this, don't drink that, make sure you do this etc). And as for breastfeeding - well you only need to look at this weeks Internet to see what people think about that.

TheDogsMissingBollock · 06/12/2014 14:30

Agree. Ditto the photos and bloody poledancing!

HelloitsmeFell · 06/12/2014 14:34

About 6 ago I was dragged along to a burlesque show by some friends, fully expecting to hate every second of it. It was a very high end production in a west end theatre, I do know that it can vary in quality enormously, just like any performance art.

I have to say hand on heart I was blown away at how witty, entertaining and artful it was, as well as being visually stunning and brilliantly choreographed and nowhere near as seedy or tacky as I'd imagined. Everyone involved in the production was very talented - that much I would not dispute.

The audience was not what I expected either. It was a huge cross section of people, young and old, hipsters and art student types, respectable middle-aged suburban types who looked like they might just as well have been going to the opera or an Andre Lloyd Webber musical, lots of gay people both male and female and (lots and lots of) slightly earnest, architect/advertising types, the likes of which have bought up all the crumbling Georgian houses in Hackney and Dalston. You know the ones I mean. The only thing they all had in common is that they seemed overwhelmingly middle class.

No leering saddos in dirty raincoats, no loud city boys heckling and waving their wads and ordering more Moet. It very much had the atmosphere of high end cabaret or theatre, as opposed feeling like a seedy strip joint or a branch of Hooters. I was pleasantly surprised by that.

I am glad I experienced it once, but I don't really understand the cult fascination with it, or how it's become such a 'thing.' I also struggle with the idea that ere supposed to shun those who ogle at page 3 girls or go to pole dancing/lap dancing bars because that is a BAD thing and exploitative and misogynistic, but saying that it's ok to be titillated by Burlesque because it's art, and art is a GOOD thing.

One is enjoyed for the 'PHWOOOAAARRR' factor by white van man, sad middle aged suited types lying to their wives about why they are late home while the other is mostly enjoyed by pretentious Guardian readers in silly glasses pretending to appreciate it an ironic way, but really they are both all about the tits and the arse cheeks.

In conclusion, now I've seen it, I do think that burlesque (done well) has more in common with the ballet, caberet or Cirque Du Soleil that it has with Spearmint Rhino or whatever it's called, but to say that it is 'empowering' is bollocks. Unless you consider it empowering to sexually tease and titillate someone and then walk away untouched and unsullied, with no cash shoved down your thong. Hmm

As for the thousands of ordinary women (who can't really sing or dance to a high standard) buying a nylon corset and some nipple tassles and wriggling their bare arse on camera and posting it on youtube, thinking they've finally found the holy grail of self esteem and self-expression, I am embarrassed on their behalf.

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:34

Pregnancy and giving birth were incredibly powerful experiences. We made people, FFS!
Doesn't mean burlesque doesn't make me feel good too and I can do that continuously without financial ruin.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 06/12/2014 14:35

I think that maybe the meaning of "empowerment" has been fucked with hasn't it, as a word?

If you set yourself to imagine a group of powerful men, you probably don't imagine a group of men in tight saucy underwear posing provocatively. Society recognises a "powerful man" in our society as generally a man in a suit, who runs something. Who has power over others, or how they think, who is an influencer, that sort of thing.

I don't think that the equivalent for women is, or should be, them being confident enough to take their clothes off in public.

I also don't really understand the whole thing. Why is a woman's confidence assumed to be linked to her ability to take off her clothes in public? If you see a woman in a nice suit on the telly talking about economics or something, is the idea "well she seems quite confident, and expert in her chosen field, but I wouldn't be able to say she was truly confident or empowered until I've seen her get her kit off"...???

Dunno if that's come out very well. I fundamentally just don't get it. It's dancing. I like dancing. I don't think it's empowering Confused

anothernumberone · 06/12/2014 14:36

I did a burlesque ( funny how the phone suggested burka for burlesque) class a few years back. Just a gang of women having a laugh. I did do a few shows for DH after which by the power I wielded over him showed I was completely empowered.

I guess it is all about context.

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 06/12/2014 14:38

And As for men being into doing burlesque - well the day I see your average group of blokes on a stag weekend doing burlesque I shall eat my nipple tassels.

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:39

I do think there's a feeling of empowerment that comes with being onstage, of being able to manipulate an audience and make them feel how you wish. I think that comes with any performing art, acting, dancing, comedy etc.
It's that problematic use of 'empowerment' again though.

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 06/12/2014 14:42

I did do a few shows for DH after which by the power I wielded over him showed I was completely empowered.

By 'power' in this context you mean you gave him an erection and he wanted to have sex with you?

lurkernowposter · 06/12/2014 14:44

HelloiitsmeFell, if those ordinary women feel empowered (even if you think that empowerment is an illusion), more confident and happy about themselves what's wrong with that? Why be so dismissive?

perplexedpirate · 06/12/2014 14:44

The best pole dancer I know is a guy. There really are a lot about, and the number is increasing.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 06/12/2014 14:44

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OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 06/12/2014 14:50

Oh that's interesting.

A lot of people (men? those awful PUA people in the US?) say that actually in societies women and girls have all the power as they have sexual power over men. Cobblers of course obviously and all based in awful victorian ideas and virgin/whore type stuff and a fundamental hatred of women in some cases unfortunately.

But is this where the idea that stripping, burlesque, etc are "empowering" comes from? That would make perfect sense as say e.g. you are just doing some dancing, why is it only touted as "empowering" if it involves taking clothes off / overt sex appeal?

I think that might be the key to it, mightn't it? It's a traditional view that women and girls can and do use their sexuality to exploit men to get stuff from them, and comes from a time when that was the only way for women and girls to get anything as they had close to zero actual power.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 06/12/2014 14:51

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syne · 06/12/2014 14:53

"Oh yes, because women's value is inextricably linked to their appearance and sexuality, whereas a man's value is linked to his actions and achievements."

You keep saying this, it doesn't make it true.

SOME women's value is linked to their appearance, and some women's value

is inextricably linked to their actions and achievements.
I'm not sure Angela Merkel got where she is on the back of her swishy hair,
likewise i'm not sure Pamela Anderson got her break due to her massive brains.
The same could be said for John Major and Brad Pitt.

Your essentially being a snob saying that fell running or mountaineering is some how more worthy of credit than burlesque because it apparently offends your feminist sensibilities. If someone chooses to dance on stage in whatever guise they want and they say its empowered them then who are you to tell them otherwise?

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