to think that burlesque is not 'empowering'

[bauhausfan]

...but just women having been brainwashed into thinking that being sexy (ie fitting into that male stereotype of frilly undies, sexual availability, coyness etc) is their choice when actually it is just brain washing by the patriarchy. Just like breast implants -'I'm doing it for myself' - well, no, you're not. You're doing it so you can feel happier because you now fit society's pre-conceived idea of sexy/attractive.

I feel really depressed by the number of intelligent women I know who are buying into this bullshit. If I'm going to celebrate feminine power, I'd rather it was through women who have worked their way into the top echelons of society - not someone called Kitty or Dita waving their baps around. I feel despair - what happened to the 70s feminist dream?

I probably should have copied the whole post I was replying to.

"Aren't you a little bit curious as to why 'confident / sexy' dressing for men is usually a crisp suit or similar. While the equivalent for women is apparently any skimpy outfit that makes us look sexuality available?"

Was what I was referring to with the dress, and that "confident/sexy" for women isn't being skimpy either. There's a fine line between "sexy" and "slutty" in society's eyes. We all know the difference between a sexy dress, and a slutty dress. I'm not going to pretend to be clueless about the distinction and attitudes between them for the sake of being "non-judgmental", because it's very prevalent in today's attitudes that it's hard to miss.

The point of my whole post was that society likes to tell women to cover up and be modest. Women are not allowed to fully own their sexuality or bodies. Look at abortion debates, look at the breast feeding pressures, look at how rape reports are treated.

So taking control of your own sexuality and saying "Fuck society, I can be as sexy on my own terms" it can be empowering.

Obviously different women find different things empowering, but I can see why they would feel a huge confidence boost doing this.

There's a fine line between "sexy" and "slutty" in society's eyes

ah, comprende!

(I read that you were making a personal distinction)

ok so I see your point it can be empowering, being in control, doing it because it makes you feel good etc.
But isnt it still 'power lite'
a distraction from the fact that the people who hold the real power are men?

I don't think its empowering at all Its like the current thing with Madonna baring her breasts...the patricarchy describe it as "empowering" whilst on the other hand they're "slut-shaming" or making other derogatory comments about women. I think good for women if they want to do strip/do burlesque tho..if they like doing it then its all good. Why not. I don't get why the "empowering" label has to be attached...as if those women who don't display their body are somehow not empowered? After all there have been strippers around for 1000s of years..its nothing new. The empowerment talk just sounds naff to me, tbh

as if those women who don't display their body are somehow not empowered?

No necessarily, different people feel empowered by different things.

Some women find giving birth naturally with no pain meds empowering.
Some women find being the bread winner empowering.
Some women find simply being independent and living on their own empowering.
Some women find winning a competition empowering.

Empowerment just means you've taken control of your own life and destiny and overcome personal barriers.

For example, I come from a decently well off socio-economic background. So going off to college was not empowering because it was easy and not a challenge to do for me. For a person who grew up and had to over come poverty, family struggles, and living in a rough area, going to college could be very empowering.

Personally, I feel empowered running my own small business, deciding my own schedule, and seeing my projects come to full fruition. Other people may find working at an office where they make more money empowering.

We all have our own opinions. I dislike the "blanket empowering" format used in media when women take their clothes off. Juxtaposed with the deriding of feminists, and the silly season shock horror when a woman bares her breast to feed her child. The sexism of it all has nothing to do with a female empowerment agenda, simply sexualising of a woman's body. I am in no way against burlesque I think it looks quite nice actually - but personally for me I don't view it as empowering in any way; women strip, audience is mostly male and men like it. Thats it, really. I can understand that some might feel differently about this kind of thing

Actually my (albeit only) experience of burlesque was that the audience was pretty evenly balanced between men and women. But as I said earlier it was a very slick production in the heart of Soho theatreland. Maybe it's different if it's when it's in the back of some pub in Barnsley or somewhere.

I don't think any one thing is "empowering". You're empowered if you get to choose. I'd say that a woman who's decided she wants to do burlesque so goes off and does it is far more empowered than a woman who has worked her way into the top echelons of society because daddy and hubby expect it of her.

But surely the woman who had worked her way to the upper echelons would have more actual power than the woman who did burlesque, whether paid or amateur? The one who did burlesque because she enjoyed it and had chosen to do it might be generally happier than the one who was under pressure to achieve from family maybe but that's not the same as empowerment imo.

"a woman who has worked her way into the top echelons of society because daddy and hubby expect it of her"
so do you have any examples of what you mean by that?

Isn't the definition of empowerment:

'make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.'

Surely that looks different for different people.

I only read the first few pages so excuse me if someones said this already, but a lot of you sound very ignorant and judgemental, and frankly, vile. Do you know what is much less empowering than burlesque? The so called bloody sisterhood slapping eachother down and being so rude about other women for making different choices. You sound like men trying to keep women in their place. Burlesque is a performance art, and yes, sometimestheres nudity. Women don't have to hide their bodies away becaus it doesn't conform to your idea of feminism. By the beautiful women of all shapes and sizes celebrating their bodies their giving to fingers up to the male establishment that only finds a certain type on body image beautiful.

*they're giving two fingers

I worked for a large firm. One Xmas part of the evening's entertainment (Xmas D&D probably 1000 people, all ages and lots of cultural backgrounds) was burlesque dancers. It was stripping, no more, no less. A lot of the blokes there couldn't believe their luck. It was sad.

...but not as sad as the "comedian" and his oh so funny racist jokes ... I complained about him.

Why does talk about burlesque "performing" always seem to end up being defended because its supposedly "empowering"?

Do we do this trundle it out as an excuse for other activities? e.g. does Jessica Ennis have to make a point about heptathlon being empowering (although she competes in far less clothing in front of the world). No, she just gets on with it and doing it. And when female athletes have been doing that and similar for years, do we really need to make a fuss about burlesque prancing being "empowering"? Or when we have ballet dancers, both male and female, doing something that actually involves talent, skill and grace, in front of an audience?

For me, burlesque is too much to do with performance, and sexuality (and I classify pole dancing in the same way) (with a good dose of attention seeking thrown in) - if we must go on about empowerment, does it have to involve sexuality and removing clothes, as opposed to actually just getting on and doing something without all the big fuss about it?

Even the concept of slowing removing clothing and leaving bits covered up, which is supposed to be exciting and empowering - why? I mean, its not as if we live in a Middle Eastern country where women have to be covered in public and removal of items of clothing probably is rather exciting - in the UK, in 2014, seriously?

And I cannot help but notice that nearly all burlesque dancers are rather "well covered" - they are not of athletic build, usually. Is it not more realistic to say it has less to with empowered sexuality, and more with keeping covered up the bits they don't want others to see (e.g. the lumpy bits, the cellulite), but still wanting to appear conventionally "sexy"?

I guess athletes don't feel the need to justify themselves by claiming that what they do is empowering because we immediately recognize their physical prowess, we know that it takes 'grit' training dedication etc to become an elite athlete.

Burlesque looks more like self indulgent showing off, you don't have to be fit, athletic or have any particular training so calling it empowering is an attempt to give it more weight, to grab some kudos?

Great point TheChandler. I watched a show about a plus sized modelling contest who were all about empowerment and big beautiful ladies, yet all the contesants had their waists contorted into corsets to produce a waist and chiffon galore covering up any overhang.

Is burlesque this type of empowerment?

are any of the burlesque artistes on this thread prepared to post a video of themselves performing, so we can see the wit and the empowerment in action? By the sounds of it some of you make a living out of it rather than just cavorting around the living room for your DPs!

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/swimming/4764525/Swimming-Bradshaws-butterfly-test.html

Please, no. It has far too much attention seeking already for me to buy the empowerment argument.

Why does burlesque empowerment always have to involve an audience and a "performance"? Is it not "empowering" when theres no-one to watch?

heart I agree about 40s feminism. It's a shame really, that it is being forgotten in favour of trendy version. Isn't that actually more like the 50s push to get women back into the home and end the empowerment women achieved in the 40s? That's hardly a symbol of women's empowerment which makes the sexifying burlesque treatment of it all the more dodgy.