To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

[drudgetrudy]

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.

@Mintyy

I feel completely unenlightened by your explanation Justine.

Oh, sorry about that Mintyy.

At last! A thread that tackles this creeping ageism that's growing on MN. I understand the anxiety about 'banning' words - but Justine, you could lead the way. Some of the MIL & PIL threads are truly awful and just littered with ageist comments and assumptions. I get that the in law relationship can be challenging but ageist comments are hardly ever called out on here.
It would be a big improvement if MNHQ were to be seen to take the issue as seriously as other 'isms'
I'm an older 60 plus mumsnetter. I've looked at Gransnet but as my life is full of people of ALL ages, I'd like my online existence to mirror that. And I hate seeing women disrespected because they're older on here. It shouldn't happen.
Thank you drudge

@GarlicGiftsAndGlitter

"Old dear" is something my parents perform when they think the stereotype might work in their favour. Younger women might perform "dumb blonde" or "frazzled housewife" for the same reason. Nobody wants to be typecast, especially as a bit useless. The fact that we can sometimes play to type, for an advantage against those who cast us, doesn't make typecasting acceptable or charming.

I agree but again, would you have us delete it (and frazzled housewife and dumb blonde too)?

My mother is also in a home-she is 95. She is very old. the other residents are also old.
This is descriptive-no problem.
Most of the residents have varying degrees of cognitive and physical decline-fact.
They are not duffers, biddies or old dears.
They are a varied bunch of people who have lived for a long time-through difficult times and retain their own individual personalities and perspectives.

I have no issue with old or elderly either, although the preferred terms in the States are elder (as an adjective as well as noun), older, or sometimes later in life. The struggle with what to call older people is a very good indicator that society thinks there's something wrong with it. "Senior citizen" used to be used in the US frequently, but then it began to acquire a negative or patronizing connotation because, well, it was used to describe older people. Elderly was ditched in favor of elder because elderly had acquired a negative connotation because it was associated with, well, older people. Elder is thought to be ok because it is thought to connote wisdom.

We struggle to find words for it because the condition itself is something that our society does not value.

But I think it is universally understood that certain words and expressions are downright offensive and intended to be. "Old biddy" is certainly one of these.

Fair enough Justine - I should have noted that: though I have to say I find it all alittle lukewarm. However I still can't get past the defence of terms such as "old biddy" and continued comments about context.

Anyone who used that phrase in any context in my company would find themselves in trouble.

Given that age is a protected characteristic, just think how it would sound if one were to replace "old biddy" with a similar phrase about a gay person, or a black person, or a Jewish person, for instance?

I would compare it to just having done my family history and finding a great aunt, aged 11yrs, in the Royal Asylum for the idiots of the seven northern counties' and her having imbecile next to her name in the census! I find it shocking,but I expect those at the time would be surprised and used similar justification-' we looked in the dictionary etc'.
We don't use those terms any more and yet older people are still fair game to use derogatory terms and people say they do not understand the offence.
I was the one to bring up the book because I was leafing through it in the library a couple of years ago and thought it up unacceptable.
I accept I am aging - my mother is over 90 yrs and elderly, but as drudge says she is not an 'old dear' , 'old biddy' and her opinions are as astute and up to date as anyone's - more so than some peoples!
It irritates me to death that someone, who doesn't know a thing about you, can write you off as an 'old biddy' because you speak to them.
How to deal with busybodies on the bus would have been better.

@Sarine1

At last! A thread that tackles this creeping ageism that's growing on MN. I understand the anxiety about 'banning' words - but Justine, you could lead the way. Some of the MIL & PIL threads are truly awful and just littered with ageist comments and assumptions. I get that the in law relationship can be challenging but ageist comments are hardly ever called out on here. It would be a big improvement if MNHQ were to be seen to take the issue as seriously as other 'isms' I'm an older 60 plus mumsnetter. I've looked at Gransnet but as my life is full of people of ALL ages, I'd like my online existence to mirror that. And I hate seeing women disrespected because they're older on here. It shouldn't happen. Thank you drudge

Do report them when you see them Sarine1 - I promise we always look at reports. I can't promise we'll delete everything - because as evidenced by this thread - there may be some things we disagree on but we certainly would delete nasty stuff. The driving thread is one a good example - it was brought to our attention because folks reported it, if they hadn't it wouldn't have been deleted.

I deliver training on unacceptable language in my company. I'm going to include the term "old biddy"in the next one. I shall be astonished if any of our employees find it remotely acceptable.

I don't think that anyone dealing with the public would find it acceptable.
You would never be rude enough (I hope) to say it to their face, so it shouldn't be said at all.
It would be a good rule:
Would you say it to their face?
If not don't use it.
(Assuming that you have not specially chosen it as an insult to their face)

I'm much more concerned about scapegoating, derision, and objectification of older people generally, rather than on MN in particular.

But the backdrop of this is the way we use language, which can reveal or reinforce negative cultural attitudes towards ageing. This is something I think we should start challenging ourselves.

So I'm not suggesting banning anything. But I do think it's time to raise our own awareness of casual ageism, and begin to quietly bin terms such as 'some old dear', 'old biddy' etc as a step towards that. Challenging such phrases or attitudes in-thread might be a good first approach here.

I think the MN response to this has been piss poor.

This is not the place for me.

Tata.

I am pretty sure that I will stick around. And I will report, and when I do, I am going to include the quotation we discussed above from Geraldine Bedell every time:

"Ageism is widespread and almost invisible, and its most casual, innocent forms lay the ground for pernicious cruelty. Everyone who makes a casual ageist remark, despises someone for not being young, or fears growing old (which is not the same thing as dying) is a little bit culpable of these acts of violence and disdain."

It's the "othering" of older people that is so dangerous and it happens through the cumulative effect of casual, even jokey, remarks. It creates a climate where abuse can flourish.

Ooh, what an interesting job, sooty!

I agree but again, would you have us delete it (and frazzled housewife and dumb blonde too)?

When it's used in an exclusionary way, yes. Expressions like that are almost always used that way, unless the poster's talking about social 'performance'. housewives, blondes and biddies shouldn't be allowed to drive or use technology; you should never ask them for directions; you have to speak slowly & clearly to them. See?

To be fair, MNers will usually pick up on exclusionary language. As ageism's something of a prejudicial last bastion, though, I do feel we could do with an assertive lead from MNHQ.
And if we don't get it, I'll keep calling you an old bag until you step up.

Great post Scone

I'm saddened that MNHQ seemingly can't see how serious the issue is. If they could they'd be putting it on the same level as the "This is my child"campaign.

It's not the main part of my job Garlic but it's a very interesting sideline.

It would be a good rule:
Would you say it to their face?
If not don't use it.

That's a totally simple rule, Mehi, and all the better for it.

I shall stay and challenge it.
I am disappointed with the response. The intention may not have been to be derogatory, but that is what it is.

Do we get away with "dumb blonde" on here? I should bloody well hope not!

'This is my child' campaign is admirable and much needed.
Ageism is just as important.

'Dumb blonde' fits my 'would you say it to their face' rule. The answer is no.

These are all terms you might use in a temper, if really annoyed with someone-there can be no justification .

I agree Mehitabel

I'm not sure I fully understand, surely there are just as many terms to describe younger people as older people which could be viewed as offensive, are we going to end up with a long list and people walking on eggshells

I'm really sorry Justine, but your explanation just doesn't cut it. It's the action of a sixth form student to look to a dictionary definition to justify their words.

And having read/skimmed the chapter (I haven't got the book/read the book as I'm an older mum myself so had no need of it), it's clear that it was about unwanted interventions from others. So I get what you say about your intentions.

It's absolutely right that new mums should be given help and advice, and supported to make their own decisions. But these come from all different quarters, and not just 'old biddies'. You may have had good intentions, but the chapter heading still blames this on old(er) women.

Can't you see that it's hugely offensive to blame all of the criticisms/judgements that are made of new mothers on 'old biddies', aka older women?

Please don't try and justify this.