To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

[drudgetrudy]

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.

Don't leave scone we need people on here with varied views to influence the culture.

Yes please don't leave. Things only change when people start to challenge them.
Agree it's a very disappointing response.

FFS. Of course biddy is an offensive term.
Biddy is never used with any form of positive connotation.
Biddies are not respected, biddies don't hold positions of authority in society, biddies are only ever older females.

It feeds directly into that prejudicial stream of thought that views older women as interfering scolds and nags.
Its use in any context is indefensible.

Gransnet running an everyday ageism thread?
Preaching to the converted. It is THIS space that needs sorting out.

Can anyone explain why Gransnet even exists?
Its mere existence is ageist.
At what age exactly are women supposed to migrate from here to a place defined by age where hairdressers advise us how not to look "matronly"?

Scone - I am very pissed off too but don't go. Stay and change this crap.

I can't tell you how heartened I am by the fabulous posts and posters on this thread. You are the women I want to be associated with. You are saying what I'm thinking but much better. I wouldn't want any of you to go. MN would be a lesser place without people like you lot, willing to challenge what others think is acceptable.

Justine, you could have just put "busybodies on the bus". There's no need to have used a derogatory stereotype. OK, you've done it now but perhaps it would have been more gracious to acknowledge it could have been done better.

@drudgetrudy

Justine-ask yourself honestly if you would like to be called an old biddy, would you find it "descriptive" or be a bit pissed off. Personally I'd be pissed off-especially if I hadn't even spoken and it was a pre-judgement (prejudice). Old duffer and old dear-even worse!

No, I don't want to be described as an old biddy, old dear, or old love, that's true. But then again I don't want to be described as old.

It's difficult - as said, I can see the point - but I'm wary of banning words - I think we should only do that very cautiously if I'm honest because once you start it is quite difficult to know where to draw the line. You think we should ban the use of old dear too? What about elderly? What about old?

Thanks, y'all. I really do enjoy MN. It's just that I am so surprised. I really expected an oops, mea culpa rather than a defense. I discovered MN when I was researching a feminist topic for work, and was really impressed by the level of discourse on FWR and on other threads as well. I really enjoy the more light-hearted discussions as well; so many posters are laugh out loud funny. But I know I would never have joined if I had known about that old biddy reference.

I have specific responsibilty for areas of equality and diversity in my company and no way would the use of that term be tolerated.

@GarlicGiftsAndGlitter

Justine, you could have just put "busybodies on the bus". There's no need to have used a derogatory stereotype. OK, you've done it now but perhaps it would have been more gracious to acknowledge it could have been done better.

Yes, you're right. The thing was we didn't think of it as a derogatory stereotype and certainly weren't intending to have a go at older people - the opposite really. I think you can tell that from the chapter that ensued.

I really expected an oops, mea culpa rather than a defense

So did I.

The thing was we didn't think of it as a derogatory stereotype

Good grief.

I'm wary of banning words

Don't be daft, nobody's asking you to

You haven't banned the words black, Jew, Arab, gypsy, Irish, Scot, ginger, blonde, etc, etc, have you? People can still say they're crippled, struck dumb or going mad. We all understand juxtaposition & context (well, most of us do.) We're asking MN to apply the same criteria to the characteristic of age.

Thank you, Justine. Yes, I read the chapter and posted that I understood the intention. I'm relieved that you now see you could have conveyed the identical message without the stereotype.

Can you honestly not see the difference between biddy and old/elderly?!!

Then I suppose you also cannot see the difference between lardarse and fat/overweight. Or how about poofter and gay/queer?

Good grief indeed Sooty.

@bodhranbae

Can you honestly not see the difference between biddy and old/elderly?!!

Then I suppose you also cannot see the difference between lardarse and fat/overweight. Or how about poofter and gay/queer?

Good grief indeed Sooty.

Yes I can, but as has been said some people regard elderly as an offensive use. I was making the point about drawing a line and where do you do it.

Also, we are talking about MN using the expression, not random posters. I am probably not going to report every "old biddy" I see on here. I am upset about MN using it.

I see the line as quite clear: the term's unacceptable.

I'm beginning to think that MN really does have a problem with casual ageism that isn't being acknowledged.

Old or elderly as a description -no problem at all.

"Old dear" - ffs-the most patronising term I can think of.
I'm over 60-I'm getting old and soon will most definitely be old-no problem- but I am not a fucking "old dear".
My opinions are as strong as ever. I'm interested in politics, I'm interested in books (my favourite mumsnet site), I am interested that the next generation have a good life.
I am not a fucking busybody on a bus ( even a kind and well-intentioned one).
Beginning to loose my temper now.

@SconeRhymesWithGone

Also, we are talking about MN using the expression, not random posters. I am probably not going to report every "old biddy" I see on here. I am upset about MN using it.

I'm sorry you're upset Scone - as said I don't think we regarded it as derogatory. And I think you can tell from the chapter that the intention wasn't to be derogatory.

Wrt to moderation policy, as said, I'd be wary of banning the word old biddy on the site, but that doesn't mean we'd never delete it, it would depend very much on context.

"Old dear" is something my parents perform when they think the stereotype might work in their favour. Younger women might perform "dumb blonde" or "frazzled housewife" for the same reason. Nobody wants to be typecast, especially as a bit useless. The fact that we can sometimes play to type, for an advantage against those who cast us, doesn't make typecasting acceptable or charming.

I don't regard over 60 as elderly but I have no problem with the term if it's relevant to what is being discussed, not just thrown in out of context. For example, my mother is in a home and I'd describe the residents as elderly in the context of relevant discussion.

I object to terms like "old woman" being bandied about when someone wants to complain about someone treating them badly in public where the age is irrelevant to the behaviour.

And there has been no response ftom HQ regarding the every day ageism going on on MN and in RL. The fact that Gransnet have some kind of (pretty obscure imo) campaign going on doesn't cut it for me.

@drudgetrudy

Old or elderly as a description -no problem at all.

"Old dear" - ffs-the most patronising term I can think of.
I'm over 60-I'm getting old and soon will most definitely be old-no problem- but I am not a fucking "old dear".
My opinions are as strong as ever. I'm interested in politics, I'm interested in books (my favourite mumsnet site), I am interested that the next generation have a good life.
I am not a fucking busybody on a bus ( even a kind and well-intentioned one).
Beginning to loose my temper now.

I agree it's patronising drudgetrudy - but does that mean we disallow it?

it would depend very much on context

I don't think there's a context in which it would ever be acceptable, sorry.

I feel completely unenlightened by your explanation Justine.

@ilovesooty

I don't regard over 60 as elderly but I have no problem with the term if it's relevant to what is being discussed, not just thrown in out of context. For example, my mother is in a home and I'd describe the residents as elderly in the context of relevant discussion.

I object to terms like "old woman" being bandied about when someone wants to complain about someone treating them badly in public where the age is irrelevant to the behaviour.

And there has been no response ftom HQ regarding the every day ageism going on on MN and in RL. The fact that Gransnet have some kind of (pretty obscure imo) campaign going on doesn't cut it for me.

Yes there has ilovesooty - you may not think it's adequate but there was a response - c&ped from earlier post:

Judging from comments here, it's something we should think a bit more about at Mumsnet too - both in terms of publicly supporting that campaign and calling folks out on it on the Mumsnet boards more/ encouraging people to report it, which is really how we're going to change things.

We were more than happy to delete the "old people driving thread the other day", as it was clearly unpleasant but I'd be wary of censoring every reference to an old biddy because I do think the usage/intention is important and sometimes it's better to have a discussion, as here, which has and will certainly made us think carefully about this issue and have a bit of an audit of ourselves and how we are moderating.

I've checked with the team and we actually get very few reports about ageism on the site, so the first place to start is to report things. We simply won't see them otherwise.