To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

[drudgetrudy]

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.

I'd like to see the word 'bitch' MN banned from MN. Unless referring to a female dog of course!

Agree about the word bitch. Hate it more than any other. But we're getting side tracked.

I can't think of any Tron- we have all been young and not had a problem. Now we are older we do. Following Justine's reasoning you would still be calling people imbeciles!

Tron, we are agreed that ageism's often used against young people too. All blanket prejudices need stamping out.

But I'm struggling to think of commonly-used terms referring to all young women in a patronising way, equivalent to 'old biddy'? I mean, I can think of stuff like 'bint' but those words aren't considered acceptable in everyday use.

I might be wrong, though It's a long time since I qualified as a young woman, and I don't use derogatory language unless I'm trying to offend!

I don't mind 'bitch' as I use it gender neutrally

What are the offensive terms used to describe younger people?

I'm not sure I fully understand, surely there are just as many terms to describe younger people as older people which could be viewed as offensive, are we going to end up with a long list and people walking on eggshells

Please tell us these terms - I'm sure they exist but I doubt there are as many or that they are as offensive. In any case, the wider issue is endemic ageism.

People walking on egg shells really shouldn't be necessary - it's about basic levels of respect.

Didn't mean to sidetrack. This has been a really interesting discussion and I agree that Justine's response has been disappointing.

I'm not sure "we all agree." There are names and phrases which could be viewed as derogatory to younger people. I just don't think it is worth making a list of unacceptable words as it will depend on your viewpoint as what is acceptable. There is of course politeness, ironically some of those who object to "ageist" words are most rude.

Oh, and the phrase 'get a sense of humour' in the chapter heading is uncomfortably close to the words that the MRA use to argue down feminists - it's just banter, you don't have a sense of humour, etc

ironically some of those who object to "ageist" words are most rude

Would you care to expand on this? And why is ageist in inverted commas?

I'd like you to expand, as well, Tron. Since I don't look on avoiding unintentional offence as 'walking on eggshells', I'm happy to be educated on the rude words I unthinkingly use when talking about young people.

I don't intend to list a host of words to be picked over as the words themselves are not the issue it is there use.

What I mean is that some of the most vociferous advocates of "ageist" words are those that think nothing of slinging insults at anyone who disagrees with them. I think that the use of language relates to context and therefore it is not appropriate to ban words.

If you have found "insults" posted, I take it you've reported them? I note you haven't been specific.

Ah..."context" again. Some words are unacceptable, whatever the context, in my opinion. That of course doesn't just apply to ageism, but to all the protected characteristics.

I think Tron means confident women with opinions.

I can't think of a single term that exists that is specifically for a younger woman- only for derogatory words for women in general. I am willing to be proved wrong, but I would need to be shown it.
You simply don't have young biddy, young bat, young dear- and I can't think of equivalents. They are words used to write off the elderly as people whose views are obsolete.
It isn't 'walking on eggshells'- it is simple - if you wouldn't say it to their face, unless you were setting out to be insulting, then don't say it behind their back.

Been reflecting-the discussion got heated last night, there is a lot of strong feeling.

What would I actually like mumsnet to do?

One of the good things about this site is that intervention is minimal and people can say what they think-leading to interesting discussions. I don't think any words or phrases should be automatically banned.
I would like MNHQ to moderate just as strongly for ageism as they do for racism and homophobia.

I would really like an admission that the title of the book chapter was inappropriate.

I hope this thread has raised awareness of the casual ageism that has increasingly been creeping on to this site.

I agree drudge - I didn't think that the title of the book chapter could be defended, I would just have liked an acknowledgement that it was casual ageism and a resolution to try and avoid in future.
Hopefully it has now been noted that it should be taken as seriously as other groups where they would not allow derogatory language.

"I would really like an admission that the title of the book chapter was inappropriate."

I think this is what I find the most troubling. If you have the mindset that really sees no issue with this at all, then obviously you don't get the whole problem. And I don't feel reassured by the anecdotes quoted. Old women are being characterised as either sour faced boots, interfering busybodies or eccentric cutesy extras from My Fair Lady - "don't spend it on beer" .

I am also very disappointed and surprised by the MNHQ response to this thread. I think that "old biddies" is extremely derogatory and ageist/sexist and its use in the MN book is hard to defend.

I think that young people subconsciously fear the fact that they too will get old (if they are lucky) and this is why they try to characterise older people as somehow different and "other"

We need to challenge this perception for the sake of the very people who are currently defending the use of ageist language. Hopefully by the time they are old enough to empathise with our viewpoint, ageism will be as unacceptable as racism and all the other isms.

The thing about agist comments directed towards a younger person - ok still not ok but a teenager is is teenager for a very short time. Once a person, esp a woman is deemed as old (often already only around 50) you are in this fated age bracket for perhaps up to 40 years or more! A whole life time of being written off and irrelevant.

A good point - my mother is getting near being classed as an 'old biddy' for nearly half her life! How depressing is that?

What would I like HQ to do?
I'd like them to have the courage to admit openly that the chapter was inappropriate.
I'd like them to stop trying to defend the indefensible.
I'd like them to acknowledge the fact that all nine protected characteristics are equally important.
I'd like them to commit to fighting ageism and challenging it where they see it instead of waffling about context And finally I'd like this everyday ageism campaign highlighted on MN and given the same emphasis as the excellent This is my Child campaign.

A perfect summary.
Can we have a response to it, Justine?

Just for the record - because this is how things become folklore - Justine was the first person to talk about banning words. All people are asking is for Mumsnet to apply the same rules to ageist comments as they do to sexism, racism or
homophobia.
I'm also very diasappointed that Mumsnet won't just admit they got it wrong.