AIBU to think it is REALLY daft to get into debt buying xmas presents etc.

[IceBeing]

Do people really go into debt over christmas and if so, why?

Heh, duchesse, we had all the stuff - even on a very low budget - but my dad went out of his way to ensure we didn't get too happy. For years, presents under the tree made me feel nervous as there were so many rules & restrictions around it! Ideally, of course, you'd get some kind of traditional Christmas together while minimising the outlay, and bust a gut to make your kids feel bathed in love & jolliness all day ...
... no wonder such a lot of people find it stressful

duchesse - its because xmas is now a non christian festival (as it used to be) as well as a christian festival, so the vast majority of people in this country celebrate it. it is by far the most celebrated festival in the uk.

(dodgy?) evangelical alliance link
www.eauk.org/culture/statistics/christmas-facts-and-quotes.cfm

51% of people say the birth of Jesus is irrelevant to their Christmas

general stats might be between 40-60 percent of uk popn identify as christian but
my anecdotal evidence tells me that about 90% of the uk celebrates xmas

So, basically, it's more about consumerism than God, right? So all schools and nurseries are doing is reinforcing the message about spending with children at the expense of the religious underpinning, which to my mind is at least as divisive, but financially rather than for religion.

Christmas has nothing to do with god for a large number of people.

its a midwinter festival. people in northern europe have been celebrating midwinter for thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years.
cos winter in northern europe is shit!
bright lights, big feasts, party time = cheer everyone up and get us through the dark times
jesus wasnt actually born on 25 dec. even christians couldnt say his birth day. it was just stuck onto existing festivals (see also other festival timed for autumn and spring)

Quite. So it is about naked consumerism then, which is the message being reinforced at school. Which I don't feel is a value I'd especially want reinforced in my DC, and must be an absolute bugger if you're a child from a poor family. So glad I was at school in France where separation of State and religion means NO religion in school, and no mention of fecking Christmas (at least in the 70s and 80s there wasn't).

capitalism is now also hijacking these festivals, you are right, but they predate christianity and capitalism by millenia and will outlast both as long as there are still seasons in northern europe at least, imo

It doesn't have to be about consumerism. We buy very little for Christmas, and spend more time together, Christmas crafts, baking, walks in the woods, making wreaths.

We do go to carol concerts and Christingle, but for us its about celebrating and spending time together. Its difficult to start that if you havent always done it, but its not impossible.

The only real spending we do, is going to see Santa, and we go the local garden centre every year to chose a decoration for the tree.

Isn't it to do with consumerism though- at least in part- we feast, we consume, we rejoice that we are alive, that we have an abundance of food, that we are not starving, there is a Bacchanalian aspect to Christmas too.

Worra at your post at 22.03 brought tears

People get into debt wanting to host the 'perfect christmas' full of material things

Its really up to them tho - personally I think if that took time out to think about it in real terms for a moment, they would see the pointlessness of getting into debt over it all. Media adverts fuel the whole thing, so its felt justified to complain that christmas will be spoilt if their DCs dont get huge presents..as if DCs dictate they MUST have it all when really, its all about what the parents feel should be done. Business is business...

But what are the "good" reasons for getting into debt? I think we are being very judgemental.

Is putting a holiday on a credit card OK? Or what about a car? I have a very servicable car that cost me £800- why borrow £6000?

People got into debt long before the 1800s. That's why you had debtors jails. You don't need credit cards. If you had a house or a horse, you'd get anything on tick.

hmm okay just to set a few things straight.

1. I don't have PTSD. The point of my other thread is to help people who fall between the gaps of PTSD and PND.Even if I did it wouldn't be an excuse for deliberately hurting people.

1. I did NOT start this thread to hurt people. I have never knowingly started a thread to hurt people. I said what I said to Mrs. D because I thought she would recognise my name and know that I couldn't possibly be serious. This obviously backfired. I started the thread because I was genuinely surprised/horrified that people would go into debt in the name of xmas. It still makes no sense to me. But everyone is different.

1. I genuinely can't remember gifts I got for xmas as a child. I don't know why not. I wasn't making it up about the chocolate orange, which I do remember.

1. I am sorry that the facts of my life come across as sneery but they are what they are. I don't think much of christmas, I can't remember being impressed by xmas gifts, my DD doesn't really care about xmas either, she doesn't go to nursery, nor will she go to school in all likelihood, we don't have a TV and hence miss the consumerism pressure to a large extent. I would never choose to go into debt and I am perfectly aware that this doesn't mean that debt won't find me anyway.

1. I hope everyone has a great xmas.

OK, I'm in a comfortable financial situation. But I refuse to buy my children expensive presents, and they know that.
My children are able to enjoy Christmas with one or two small gifts each, they understand that most presents they desire only ends up as rubbish in the toybox a few days later.

There are parents up and down the country who are having sleepless nights about Christmas. There are mothers and fathers who feel like absolute failures because they can't provide the basics for their children and are going hungry themselves so that they can feed their son or daughter. How dare you judge them if they choose to get into a bit of debt so that for one day our of the year, their children can feel normal? So that they can have a hot meal and have a gift or two to open? I am LUCKY that we're not in the same position. That's all it is, luck. I am not better than the mothers I mention above, I am not more succesful, i am not a better parent I've just been lucky. There but for the grace of God. Shame on you OP.

The facts of your life didn't come across as sneery. Your lack of empathy and judgement of others did.
You are obviously very lucky to be at a stage in your life where you are able to stay in a bubble and not let consumerism or the celebrations of others affect the expectations of your child, although i would imagine that this will become more difficult with age.
Perhaps you would have been better being clearer in your original and subsequent posts that there is a difference between those who are in a position to have to be in debt just to be able to provide a small gift and a good meal, who sit up and night worried and feeling like they are a failure to their children ,who often make the choice to go without themselves so that their children can have a toy or new pair of winter shoes, than those who continually live beyond there means and would think nothing of replacing a 8month old game console for a new £500 pound replacement with little care or concern about how the debt might affect them in the long run.
assuming that both are one in the same is wrong

I wouldn't advocate getting into debt for Christmas either but I don't think your thread is really about that at all. It seems to be more about opting out of Christmas, and much life experience in general for your DCs, i.e. nursery and school. You might find it difficult to exercise your level of control over your DC in the years to come OP, they develop minds of their own and maybe she might want a kick-arse Christmas when older as she feels deprived of it now.

We are poor but for a few days a year we can feel like we are not and have nice food and a few toys so maybe we have to pay it off over the next year but to see my kids faces and enjoy ourselves with some extra nice food and some nice presents under the tree its so worth it

clicketyclick66 - maybe you are buying crap gifts. Or maybe you have spoilt brats.

IceBeing,
I'm late to this thread and haven't read it all, but I see where you're coming from.
I think most of us find it understandable that people go into debt because they want their children to have a Christmas. Who wouldn't want that?
But, I think you are probably wondering why some people go into such HUGE debt for Christmas.... some people spend thousands and thousands. But your post didn't say that.
Maybe it should have.

It's crazy to go into debt for one day of commercialism (if you are not into the religious side of Christmas). Childhood memories are made of memories of time spent with people, doing stuff together, building relationships, not tat under a tree or eating too much.

There'll be a daily fail article about it in the next few weeks - someone who gets thousands of pounds worth of payday loans to get the latest gadgets etc. There's one every year - and a thread to go with it of course :o

Gong to read the thread in a moment. However my immediate reaction is that Christmas doesn't need to cost lots of money to be special. Sadly it's got very commercial and many are sucked into spending hundreds and thinking technology for kids is essential