To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

Lougle, but she is "just" someone as far as we are concerned. She's an anonymous victim, to the rest of the world. If it wasn't Gertrude, it would have been Mavis. And if all the Gertrudes and Mavises cut back on drinking, then more sober women would be raped.

And if Sabrina (sorry Sabrina) hadn't been drinking, maybe she would have woken up when the door opened, and sensed that the tread and the breathing and the smell of the other guy weren't those of her boyfriend.

Doesn't it come down to - you think Sabrina had a reasonable expectation of safety but that the CE victim did not?

She might have been safer indoors, sober. She might not have been.

What if I told you I was actually raped several times indoors, sober? By my partner at the time.

Sorry, not meaning to be the 'victim' here, I'm really not. I've told both these stories before on MN, under other NNs.

But can you not see that asking questions like that of victims, about their behaviour, their sobriety, about how it may not have happened if only is all a part of victim blaming?

"Being drunk" really is the new version of "was she wearing a short skirt?".

I still think that there are things we can do to minimise the risk that if there is a rapist in the area, it us he chooses. Which is all any woman can do.

'If it wasn't Gertrude, it would have been Mavis.'

If you're Gertude's mum I bet you sure as hell wish it was Mavis instead.

Ok, Lougle. We aren't going to change your mind clearly, but thanks for the discussion.

Minimise the risk? Well, you can get a cab.

Black cab rapist John Worboys

Or just stay at home. And not be the 'typical' age of a rape victim.

Nightstaker Delroy Easton Grant

Aaaah titchy!

My point was - the victim of CE is a "someone" to all of us (assuming no one on here knows her personally) - so what is the point of saying "if it hadn't been her, it would have been someone"

Ok, I'm out.

Well if we were all sober on that night and unwilling to go to a hotel room with a stranger, then unless he was a man who was willing to abduct a woman then none of us would get raped. Or if we were tipsy but with good friends who would look out for us. Or even steaming drunk with one designated friend who would stay sober to keep an eye on us, etc.

I accept the biggest 'or' would be 'if CE wasn't a rapist....' but following your argument, if not him, it would be another man.

"following your argument, if not him, it would be another man."

No, I disagree. I'd rather focus on reducing the number of rapists.

The number of drunk drivers was reduced by a campaign focussing on what the law was and the consequences of breaking it. Since CE doesn't think he did anything wrong, and lots of people agree, then the message about what rape is clearly isn't getting out there. And one of the reasons is that many people think women who are drunk are partly responsible for their own rapes , cf the amnesty data - which means the men who rape them get to think that as well.

Well if we were all sober on that night and unwilling to go to a hotel room with a stranger, then unless he was a man who was willing to abduct a woman then none of us would get raped.

OK lougle, you have no way of knowing that this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been drunk. Sober women are raped, you know. You are judging women for drinking - how is that ^ statement not blaming women for being drunk??

MEoD you can't make a direct comparison because those countries are usually operating under a different culture and women are usually deemed inherently inferior there and often what we would deem rape isn't even unacceptable, let alone criminal, there. So whilst it is terrible (it really, really is) you can't compare directly. also, my point isn't that women shouldn't drink, it is that they are more vulnerable if they do. Which shouldn't need to be a consideration in a fair society, but as we have a society which has a number of rapists in it, and as you don't know someone is a rapist until he has raped someone, you can only have some influence on your own behaviour.

I am not judging the woman for drinking. I am saying that if she hadn't been drinking she may not have agreed to going to a hotel room with a stranger.

my point isn't that women shouldn't drink, it is that they are more vulnerable if they do.

Except that more victims are sober than drunk. How does that work?

Actually, I'm out. You're deliberately twisting my words, we're 400 posts in and you won't be satisfied until I say that women should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want and men should have more self-control than women even if they're drunk. Which I won't say because it isn't true.

Sabrinna I'm sorry you have faced rape so many times.

I am not judging the woman for drinking. I am saying that if she hadn't been drinking she may not have agreed to going to a hotel room with a stranger.

That is victim blaming!

MEoD we cross-posted. Im sorry that happened to you.

If she had been even more drunk perhaps she would have passed out in the kebab shop and never bumped into CE's mate. If, if, if.

It's quite reasonable to wonder if she would have decided to do so if she hadn't been drinking so much. It's also quite reasonable to see this as victim blaming. Second guessing her (sober) actions & comparing the two is saying she is to blame because she altered her responses by drinking.

IMO, it makes other people in part responsible for the situation (eg the taxi driver & hotel receptionist) who should have clocked that something wasn't quite right.* And now it's an outsiders fault too? You can write that Ched Evans is guilty of rape as many times as you like, but it hasn't stopped you blaming 3 others too.

I was burgled years ago, at no point did anyone ask why we left the window open etc. NOT ONCE!!! Yet a woman is raped & she is asked

what she was wearing
what she had to drink
had she previously had sex/intimate relations with him
why did she go to a room with him
etc etc

It's victim blaming!

I would advise my daughter not to go alone to the flat of a man she met in a bar who was just released from a 20 year sentence for raping girls he met in bars. Well I agree that that would be fucking stupid, but how will she know that he did that? As I said, sex offenders/rapists aren't tattooed & they generally don't offer up info like that! And what if it is her long term boyfriend who rapes her, her flat mate, her husband, her friend?

But it is vitally important to be able to look at all the factors involved impartially, without blame, so that we can prevent future rape. But nothing, expect for men stopping raping will prevent rape!!!

lougle How was the cab driver supposed to know that CM was going to text Ched to come & rape this girl?
How was the hotel receptionist supposed to know that CM was going to text Ched to come & rape this girl?

They weren't, they could easily have asked what was happening, and been told that the girl was CM's girlfriend. Ched lied in order to get a key for that room, how was the hotel receptionist to know that he was intending on raping the occupant? It was very early morning & it is quite possible they bth thought of them as a couple who had just returned from a night out together!

In your analogy, you can visibly see that the driver to be is drunk & act on it. Still wouldn't make it anyone's fault but the drivers if you did not do anything.

I view that differently than a situation where you (supposedly willingly) went to a stranger's hotel room, late at night. You've just blamed her AGAIN!!!

Stop.Fucking.Blaming.Ched.Evans.Victim.For.Her.Rape

The other young woman went back to a hotel room with a man who she only met that night while she was drunk And AGAIN!!!

Once again you're saying that I hold that girl responsible for her rape, when I am saying she is not. Then you need to be a bit more careful in how you word things, because everything you seem to saying is holding the victim as least partially responsible.

Your post at 19-Nov-14 13:38:58 is dressing it up nicely, but change "pondering if" to "thinking that" and your post is full of victim blaming. "Pondering if" is dressing up "thinking that" nicely, but it means the same.

"Being drunk" really is the new version of "was she wearing a short skirt?". It would appear so...

'If it wasn't Gertrude, it would have been Mavis.'

If you're Gertude's mum I bet you sure as hell wish it was Mavis instead.

Not sure if I am being picky here, but I don't think is the thread to make jokes on...I don't think anyone wishes someone else's daughter gets raped instead of theirs...

I am not judging the woman for drinking. No, you are not.

I am saying that if she hadn't been drinking she may not have agreed to going to a hotel room with a stranger.

You are blaming her for her rape.

And what if she was sober & still went to the hotel room? The blame, according to you, is still on her for going back to the hotel room...

She can't win, can she.

She was raped (twice, I believe, because I do think CM raped her)
She has been hounded by his family
She has had her identity revealed at east twice
She has probably lost her fmaily & friends because of her new identities

And now, the very people who should be believing her, blame her.

Still, at least we can all rest assured that we won't get raped, as we wouldn't be silly enough to get drunk, or to go to a room with a man.

That is all you are doing, no? Reassuring yourself that it won't happen to you, because you never be as careless as to get drunk around strangers....