To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

*Heebie, that's another poor analogy, because you'd advise either sex to take additional care around a known criminal.
*
I posted earlier that I would advise my children of either sex not to get so drunk they were at risk. I'm unsure why it is a bad analogy - the known criminal is still the one responsible for the rape, not the person (male or female) that they rape personal safety advice.

Yes I did read the amnesty link. It disgusts me that people hold those views. But I think you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Did you read the NIH data I posted yesterday.

I'm not sure that I have ever come across a known criminal.

The problem is that general safety advice - don't get drunk, always make sure somebody knows where you are - is helpful generally as described in all sorts of ways in this thread ad infinitum.

Linking that advice to rape gives the impression that

1. At a certain point the victim becomes responsible
2. It's only rape in certain situations - down dark alleys, with a stranger etc. etc.
3. If a girl it is drunk it is reasonable to assume she is up for it.

Given the culture we live in - where CE and his supporters are still claiming he is innocent, where ITV2 happily screen Dapper Laughs - the bigger message needs to be that girls are not universally up for it, drunk or sober. Sex requires consent.

If you want to use this case as an example, just point out that it seems that because she was drunk she lost her handbag and was unable to follow the Green Cross Code.

Ah yes, because, underlying it all is a moral judgment that nice girls don't get drunk, that there is something inherently wrong with getting drunk.

I agree, but there is also a belief that women are the gatekeepers for sex of all kinds, and 'nice' girls don't put out. There are stupid people who believe that rape is about sex so it becomes a logical fallacy.

'Nice' girls stay sober, 'nice' girls don't have sex, therefore women who get drug aren't 'nice' and because they aren't 'nice' they in some way deserve to be raped, because if they were 'nice' then it would never have happened.

There are a few women on this thread who I know are rape victim survivors. Not a single one of them was responsible for what happened to them, no matter how drunk they were, what they were wearing or where they went. Far too much responsibility is placed on women's shoulders when it comes to rape, and far too little on men's.

"girls women are not universally up for it"

I blamed myself for an attempted rape that happened to me at uni for a long time. Why wouldn't I? It's what society drums into us from an early age: "don't get yourself raped!"

The incident was also not a million miles from the CE rape.

My then bf and I had been on separate nights out, I decided to go into his room in Halls of Residence and wait for him. I was drunk. Very drunk, I'd say. I got into his bed (clothed) and fell asleep. I woke to find someone else kissing me. My bf's friend (who had the room next door) was in bed with me trying to undress me. I told him no - very clearly - but I couldn't get out of the bed because he was pinning me down, and he was a big bloke. I was tiny.

My bf came back, and interrupted him. This bloke jumped up, and said 'sorry mate' to my bf.

Was any of that my responsibility? I fear some posters may feel that the cold hard facts were that had I not been drunk, I wouldn't have made the decisions I did, that it wouldn't have happened.

I might add that the fallout from that incident was not as great as it should have been - he was just a bloke trying it on with his mate's gf. A year later, he called on me at my student house - out of the blue. I didn't know he even knew where I lived. My housemates were in too, thankfully. Why did I tolerate this? He was clearly a predator. Why didn't I report him? Because I, at least partially, blamed myself.

Ok, I haven't ploughed through the whole thread, just the first couple of pages...but I am finding the OP's angst about this unnecessary and, even, a tad, let's politely say... exaggerated. Your DD asks what has the footballer done, you say he had sex with a woman when she didn't want to do it and that that is called rape and is very wrong and people go to prison for it. Now the man wants his old job back (as a footballer) and most people think he doesn't deserve it because what he did was so bad.

Then...you MOVE ON. You change the subject and if she persists you say you don't think it's a very nice topic and let's talk about something else now. You can remind her she is a child and needn't worry about these things. She doesn't need to be fully informed and aware of all the issues around it.

Yeah - he clearly thought that it was my bf that he had wronged - not me. He had encroached on another blokes 'territory'. I never even saw it that way at the time - I felt guilty.

I looked him up recently. He's on linked in - doing some fairly decent, professional job. I wonder how many other women he's done this to?

Sabrinnnnna that must have been terrifying. No, I wouldn't say any of that was your fault and I wouldn't say your drinking had any impact on your situation. If you hadn't been drinking you probably would have gone back to his (empty) room and may well have decided to have a nap while you waited. If you weren't drunk, I'd suspect you still couldn't have fought him off (I posted up thread that DH can pin me down with one hand).

I view that differently than a situation where you (supposedly willingly) went to a stranger's hotel room, late at night.

I admit that I don't have any experience of that 'scene' -been drunk only twice in my life, teetotal, don't socialise with strangers. Perhaps if I did, I'd see it differently. It's completely alien to me.

What I did wasn't so different to Ched Evans's victim.

We both went to a place with the intention of sleeping with a particular - only then this man's friend decided to 'have a go' on us.

*particular man

Sorry to be picky about it, but sabrinnna you went back with the intention of sleeping with a man you had known and trusted while sober and were in a relationship with. The other young woman went back to a hotel room with a man who she only met that night while she was drunk. It was that man who betrayed her trust and called his mate over to 'have a go.' The only thing that would make it similar is if your then BF had told the other guy to pop in and 'have a go'.

I met him because we both worked in a small shop (teenagers) and I got to know him and his family over a period of three years before dating him, another two years dating, then a year engaged before marrying.

YY Empire - and it's fine to use my example.

The reason I shared my story was that I wanted to put across the way people dissect the behaviour of rape victims goes into all our psyches. Making judgements over the woman's behaviour is victim blaming. It takes the onus off the rapist, and puts onto the victim. I blamed myself, not the guy who attacked me.

It never even occurred to anyone (my friends and me) that I should report this. Because just like CE and his crew think CE wasn't guilty of a rape, just of cheating, everyone seemed to think bf's friend was only guilty of (as George Galloway would put it) bad manners and it was my bf that he apologised to, not me.

This is rape culture.- a culture in which rape is excused, blamed on the victim, and the onus put on women to 'take responsibility' to avoid it - rather than on the men not to do it, not to treat women like they are constantly available for sex - that if they consent to one guy, they'll consent to another, that if they're drunk they're an easy target, and so on.

No. Once again I disagree. Once again you're claiming that I am saying something that I am not. Once again you're saying that I hold that girl responsible for her rape, when I am saying she is not.

You're calling into question her behaviour, are you not?

No. I am pondering if she would have been safer, sober. I am pondering if she would have trusted him, sober. I am pondering if he would have encouraged her back to the hotel room, sober. I am pondering if she would have accepted, sober. I am pondering if he would have called Evans had she been sober. I am pondering if she truly consented to sex with Mcdonald (the fact that he was tried means the prosecution think no, but the jury say yes and the woman doesn't know).

None of that says she is somehow guilty or responsible for her rape. I do wonder if it would ever have happened had she been sober, or perhaps more accurately, if it would have happened to her. (I suspect it world have happened to someone )

I pressed post too soon. I meant to add that even if it wouldn't have, that doesn't mean she shouldn't have consumed alcohol. It is her right to.