To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

Morning all
Always Time for a link to we believe you
Peace and love please.

I wasn't lucky, just wasn't around a rapist.

So a man accused of rape is guilty regardless of the legal process? Is that what the campaign is aiming at? Any man, anywhere, accused of rape is guilty because 'we believe you'???

What a travesty for justice.

Olivia, if your DH came home and said that a colleague had accused him of rape, but he didn't do it, would you believe her?

I don't object to any of the myth busting statements (except the ones that say that nothing a woman does had any impact on her risk, obviously) but I do have a problem with the statement 'we believe you' because it, in essence, does away with the central tenet of our legal system which is 'innocent until proven guilty'. People on this thread are saying 'nah, it just means not enough evidence. They're still guilty....'

So what would convince you that a man was innocent? The whole point is that in most sexual encounters the only two people present are the plaintive and the defendant.

I know that all people, no matter their race, class, sex or personality are entitled to a fair trial. I can't see how any man could get a fair trial if a juror is signed up to the 'we believe you' campaign because it indicates that the juror already thinks the defendant is guilty just because he is in the dock.

I don't care if a man is salt of the earth or an awful criminal with convictions for loads of other crimes. If he did it, he did it. If he didn't then he should be able to fairly plead his case.

Wow. lougle is questioning OliviaMN on the WBY campaign.

Your posts are properly entering into the realms of rape apology now, lougle. Do your readily align your views with MRA rape apologists, or is it just a coincidence?

Once again:

We Believe You isn't a legal position, nor meant to be. It is a support to rape victims, who according to research only report the crimes against them in 1 out of 10 cases. Of those 1 out of 10 cases reported, 2-3% are false allegations, and fewer of those are actual malicious allegations.

So yes, I will believe rape victims who come forward to report they have been raped, because evidence suggests to me that they are highly likely not to be lying. And because I am not currently serving as a juror in a court of law, and because rape victims need all the support they can get. When and if I am ever a juror in a court of law, then I will "weigh up all the evidence" as our CJS requires.

But don't you see that if that is your position, there could be hundreds of men walking around with a black mark over their head and there is nothing they can do about it? How can that be right? How can they defend themselves?

The logical conclusion to 'we believe you' is that any woman who has a grudge against a man can claim he raped her and you would believe her.

I am not, by the way, claiming that CE is in any way innocent -the legal process has been followed and he has been found guilty. I am talking about the general notion that any woman who at any time says someone raped her, is telling the truth and by extension the man is guilty of rape.

lougle, this is what eminent woman-hater Paul Elam says about rape:

"Rape apology
Elam once accused women who've been raped of bringing the crime committed against them upon themselves because "they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though [sic] life with the equivalent of a [sic] I'M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads."[10] He has also stated that he would vote to acquit in the event he were called to serve on the jury in a rape trial even if he knew for a fact that the accused were guilty.[11]
[edit]"

Source: RationalWiki.

Just have a little read back of your posts, lougle. Not a million miles away from his views are they?

I disagree whole heartedly. Obviously.

You even used the same words as him to describe women's behaviour. "Stupid" for example.

Calling a woman's behaviour (your own behaviour!) 'stupid' for just going about her daily business, and making everyday mistakes -like not having your phone charged- that everyone makes sometime or another, is not helpful for anyone. Particularly not for victims of rape.

You have a clear lack of understanding of the effects of dissecting women's behaviour, and judging it to be 'risky' or putting herself at risk - and victim blaming. Because, believe me, the one does lead to the other.

Saying the the MN WBY campaign is going to lead to hordes of evil women accusing men they have a grudge against of rape - is ludicrous. It is a campaign to support victims of rape.

Innocent until Proven Guilty is just a statement of legal status.

Unless and Until such time as someone is proven guilty of a crime, they have access to the same citizenship rights as an innocent person. So they can vote, for example.

It doesn't mean that no one can have an opinion on them.

And what is the flip side? If you assume that all accused of rape are innocent until proven guilty, aren't you also assuming all accusations of rape are false until proven true? Thereby assuming all victims of rape are guilty until proven innocent of false accusation?

Of course not. The whole point of WBY, as you must have read time and again on here, is that rape victims are believed far less than victims of other crimes, not to recast the criminal justice process of the uk.

I am allowed to call my own behaviour stupid!

Would you call it stupid if I'd done what you did, but wasn't calling myself stupid?

This is taking far too much of my time. We're never going to agree. Accuse me ofwhat you want. I'm not willing to engage further, but reserve the right to think for myself.

Ok.

I was curious, because I tend to be harsher on my own mistakes, like forgetting to buy milk or whatever, than those of others. But we all only have so much time/energy.

Of course you're allowed to call your behaviour stupid, if you so wish.

But I don't see what relevance a woman's behaviour- stupid or otherwise - has in a discussion about rape. You need to understand that analysing a woman's behaviour within the context of rape is victim blaming.

Oh I'm sorry.... did women fight for the right that women could think for themselves, or did they fight for the right for a set of women to tell the rest of the women how to think???

You have the right to think what you like lougle, just as I have the right to criticise your statements. Just as you are disagreeing with mine. It's a free country, that's how it works...

Yes, limited. Rape myths are perpetuated by women too - and should be challenged.

Oh I'm sorry.... did women fight for the right that women could think for themselves, or did they fight for the right for a set of women to tell the rest of the women how to think???

You think women are raping women? You think women are telling women to think that women who are raped deserve it and should be told that they do, because they dared to enjoy life? Just because lougle you hate women who drink, and you do, so please don't even think of denying it, it doesn't mean that those women deserve anything apart from the occasional hang over and photocopy of their arse