To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

The lack of logic in some of these posts astounds me - some of you have a very odd view of reality imo - effectively saying there is nothing any woman can ever do to prevent herself being a victim que sera sera - all men are potential rapists all women in a state of perpetual victim hood, no action we can take will make us even a little bit safer .

Some of us are saying that this is not the case. Rape is always the fault of the rapist but there are some behaviours that we engage in that make us easier targets for some types of rape. We have a responsibility to ourselves and our daughters to acknowledge that .

Refusing to acknowledge that plays into the hands of rape apologists because, like them, you are confusing taking responsibility for being in a vulnerable situation (not a crime) with the action of taking advantage of someone in that situation and raping them (a crime). Conflating the two does not help in any anti rape campaign.
I have been that teenager, drunk and vulnerable - and not raped because I was lucky to be with decent men, not because I was 'good'. I am still responsible for putting myself in that vulnerable position. If I had been raped the only blame would be on the rapist. I would not have been responsible for the rape but I would still be responsible for putting myself in the vulnerable position.
We have to be clear, logical and consistent in our arguments.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist but ...

Ask yourself what you are saying when you add "but" onto that sentence.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist.

" all men are potential rapists"

No one except you has said this.

Dingle - Victim blaming isn't just saying "it was her fault". If you say "it wasn't her fault but..." then generally what follows is victim blaming. Your post is a pretty straight up example of victim blaming. I am sad that you can't see that, but given what you've said about your family, I know that you won't.

No one is suggesting that we don't teach our children (of both sexes) about personal safety. As I have said, if you get horribly drunk there is a good chance that Bad Things will happen. The one time I have been so drunk I lost my memory I woke up with an enormous bruise on my arse where apparently I had decided it was a good idea for my friend to give me a piggy back. I was very lucky I didn't lose possessions, do something properly dangerous or become a victim of some form of crime.

What people are objecting to is your constant assertion that women bear personal responsibility if they get drunk and are then raped. That is no one's fault but the rapists. It would make as much sense to say that men shouldn't get drunk because a large number of rapists are drunk (actually more sense, because that would also cover a lot of rapes committed against friends and partners).

Dingle speaks of logic, but her (actually quite shameful) post about her niece essentially says "I'm not victim blaming but it was her fault".

You can say "I never said it was her fault" - but did used the phrasing: "if she had not lied to her parents and gone out, if she had stayed at the house, she wouldn't have been raped. People have to take responsibility" which is saying it was (at least partially) her fault for going out. Which is victim blaming.

I think it was very wrong of you to use your niece's story (as MEOd says, she was a child ) on a public forum like that, dingle.

interesting how you are using works like shameful Sabrina - classic tactic of someone seeking to silence the opposition because they are losing the argument.

Only rapists are responsible for rape, only murders for murder, only thieves for theft. BUT (and I use that word deliberately) we all have a responsibility to ourselves and our daughters to be aware that some decisions we make will make us more vulnerable to being a victim of some of these crimes. Being out of your head on alcohol is one of these situations. I fail to see how that is victim blaming. The Institute of Alcohol studies has some interesting statistics. www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Alcohol-and-women/Factsheets/The-effects-of-alcohol-on-women.aspx

"Sexual assault

Alcohol is a major factor in sexual assaults. The 2011/12 Violent Crime and Sexual Offences statistics for England & Wales found that 41% of female victims believed their assailant to be under the influence of alcohol during a serious sexual assault, and a third of the victims themselves had also been under the influence of alcohol (33%).[22]

In a report on alcohol and sexual health, the Royal College Physicians said:

Use of alcohol by both victim and perpetrator is commonly implicated in sexual assault, although the state of intoxication of the victim is more significant. The proportion of reported rapes in which alcohol use is reported or can be detected biochemically in the alleged victim varies from 35 to 46%... Intake of alcohol by an individual increases the risk of both stranger rape and date rape occurring... Alcohol consumption alters risk perceptions as well as lowering inhibitions. At the same time, perpetrators may actually seek out intoxicated women.[23]"

I suppose you'll argue that's victim blaming though

The only person guilty of the rape here is the rapist but the stark cold fact is that if they had not lied to their parents, if they had stayed at the friend's house and not gone out, they would not have been raped that night.

Dingle - ^ that is what you wrote on this thread. That is shameful victim blaming. You used your niece's rape when she was a child, to make a point about victim's "having to take responsibility". That is pretty shameful imo.

she was responsible for lying, going out, getting drunk, she was not responsible for rape. I made that clear. she was responsible for make poor decision, making poor decisions is not something that should lead to being raped. I wish we lived in a world where that was the case. The only person responsible for the rape is the rapist, we are still responsible for making our own decisions to engage in risky behaviour. If you can't acknowledge that distinction then I do think you are playing into the hands of rape apologists.

Why do you think Sabrina is playing into the hands of rape apologists? I don't understand your logic there.

all men are potential rapists all women in a state of perpetual victim hood No one is saying all men are rapists. No one is saying all women are perpetual victims.

We are saying that NOTHING a women does, be it get drunk, go to a room with a man she does/doesn't know, wears very little/walks alone/etc etc makes rape her fault. EVER!

And suggesting we adopt a pattern of behaviour to make ourselves less likely to get raped is victim blaming & will do nothing!

It's your attitude that plays into the hands of the rape apologists, dingle.

When you victim blame (and that is what you are doing) by dissecting the behaviour/responsibility of the victim, rather than that of the perpetrator you are providing a sort of mitigation for the rapist. Rapists actually use it to justify it to themselves, to excuse their actions and as a defence in court.

I am still responsible for putting myself in that vulnerable position. NO no & no again!!

Don't you get it? We do not 'put ourselves in a vulnerable position' we are vulnerable if a rapist is present, but that is because a RAPIST IS PRESENT, not because we are drunk/alone etc.

How about those who are raped by their boyfriends/dhs etc? Are they responsible for being 'vulnerable' while sharing a bed/home/car with them?

Rape is never a woman's fault.

Some behaviours we engage in carry more risk of personal injury (including rape) than others. A woman who is raped is never responsible for the rape.

We are responsible for the decisions we make to engage in risky behaviours and we need to acknowledge that because when we don't acknowledge that a rape apologist conflates responsibility for being in a vulnerable position with responsibility for being raped. So they go down the "it was her fault for getting drunk" route. We need to be able to say "yes she was totally responsible for getting drunk, however, sex with a woman who does not consent, or is not capable of consent, is still rape". The law clearly distinguishes between these two types of responsibility - it does not assume a drunk woman is responsible for her own rape. www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/

But we do ourselves no favours by pretending that the issue of consent while drunk is not a very complex one.

Dingle, the statistics you are using point out that in 54- 67% of sexual assaults alcohol is not present in the victim, therefore alcohol is not present in the victim in the majority of cases.
These statistics also do not state how much alcohol the victim had drunk, do you believe that by drinking half a small glass of wine, the victim has made herself vulnerable to assault?
If so, maybe women shouldn't have a chocolate liqueur, just in case it flicks a switch in the rapists around her that she's now vulnerable?
Not all men are rapists, and the ones that are happen to be the ones with the problem, there is nothing a woman or a man can do to reduce the likelihood they will be a victim, apart from getting all rapists off the streets for life.

So if my previously easy going dh raped me tonight, would I have been responsible for my risky behaviour of sharing a bed with him?

How about if my best (male) friend raped me? Would I be responsible for my 'risky' behaviour of being alone in his car with him, or in my house with him?

What if I get carjacked tomorrow? I am responsible for driving my car with the door unlocked?

Or is it just our rapes/sexual assault we are partly responsible for not preventing?

By accusing those of not acting to prevent a rape, you are blaming them for it.

Dinglegirl - given that a third of women (the proportion cited as having consumed alcohol at the time of the attack) are not drunk at any one time - it's far less, then clearly more women are raped having consumed alcohol than you would expect if alcohol consumption didn't correlate. There IS a correlation. Please note a correlation does NOT imply causality.

Do you regard the Freedom programme as victim blaming? If your'e not aware it is a programme designed to change the behaviour and mindset of DV victims. Note - it aims to change the victims not the perpetrators.

Sorry chocogilr I meant, not dingle!

Dingle. Why are you linking us to the cps definition of rape and consent? You didn't post about consent on this thread, you posted a load of stuff about your niece's rape and how it never would have happened if blah blah, and how women have to take responsibility blah blah.

Unfortunately, 15yr olds are raped by friends, boyfriends, family members, music teachers, sports coaches, as well as by strangers. They are raped in their home, friend's homes, relative's homes, in the park, at family weddings, in toilets, anywhere in fact. They are raped at night, and in broad daylight. Drunk or sober.

The only thing that makes her vulnerable to rape is the actions of a rapist.

The issue of taking responsibility for our own actions is the common thread here Sabrina. No-one is responsible for the actions of others. The issue of consent does not come into it with the 15yr olds - the men were older, the girls were under age, even if they had not been drunk, even if they had consented, it would still be rape. The girls would STILL not be responsible for that rape. The only think they are responsible for is putting themselves in that situation. If they had not been raped they would still be responsible for putting themselves in that situation.

IMO the lack of logic in your messages, and your apparent refusal to accept that woman have any power of agency to make decisions that might affect their personal safety, makes it very difficult to discuss these issues with you. And I do think we need to discuss them, because saying something like "The only thing that makes her vulnerable to rape is the actions of a rapist." is simply the flip side of rape apologist language - indeed can make the rape apologist seem more reasonable.

If you take away any notion of women's personal responsibility for their actions then you deny us the notion of agency which is fundamental to our understanding of what it is to be a consenting human being.

I repeat, the only person responsible for a rape is the rapist.

Titchy, you are also being too simplistic on those stats.

Let's make the reasonable assumption that to be raped by anyone other than a live in partner, a woman has left her house. If she is raped by a date, a non live in boyfriend, a friend, a stranger she met that night or an acquaintance (ie anything other than a chance encounter in the street/park that led to, effectively, an abduction to a place where the assault could happen) - then she was probably socialising at the time.

In order to properly test your proposed correlation, you would need to know what proportion of women on a date in a bar were raped vs what proportion weren't. How did these proportions vary with the number of units consumed? Were the women sticking to soft drinks safer than those having two glasses of wine? Was there a stronger or weaker correlation between incidence of rape and the amount the man had drunk? What about other factors - was rape more likely on the first date or the fifth? What about if the bar was in a town centre or at a country golf course?

What about attempted rapes? Was there any correlation between "fighting off" the attacker and any of the above factors?

And, the great untestable - what was in the mind of the men with these women? Did they ever have any intention to rape which was thwarted by canny drink management?

And please stop likening it to the freedom programme. If you are saying what the victim wears/drinks/says etc makes her more or less vulnerable to rape, you are assuming that there's an element of very short term choice to the rapist's victim selection. The freedom programme is about making better long term choices.

Yonic - yes I agree it is far more complicated than simply who had a drink and who didn't. The context is incredibly important. and the research is difficult. But made more so by those who shout 'victim blamer' at the suggestion that we need to know more, about both victim and perpetrator. No-one here seems willing to acknowledge that women from lower socio-economic groups are more likely to be the victim of rape - there has to be a reason why this is, and understanding those reasons would be incredibly useful for future women with a similar background.

The biggest proportion of rape perpetrators are the partners of the victims. Do these partners spend years being a perfect, kind, considerate, supportive partner, then one day they flip and commit rape? Somehow, and a previously posted link supports this, the rape is part of a much longer term pattern of abuse. So yes, the analogy to the freedom programme IS valid. If a woman is being abused by her partner it is likely she will at some point be raped by him. Doing the Freedom programme, with a view to changing, may well give her the tools to LTB and thus avoid future rapes.

I repeat, the only person responsible for a rape is the rapist.

Then why oh why do you keep questioning the behaviour of victims? That is the very definition of victim blaming - and that plays straight into the hands of rape apologists?