To be sick of personality disorder being used as an excuse for bad behaviour?

[fluffydressinggown]

I see it all the time on here, people say their partner/friend/family member has behaved badly and someone comes along and says maybe it is a personality disorder.

Personality disorder does not necessarily make you a bad person or give you bad behaviour. Some people are just dicks. Not dicks with a mental health problem.

Lovely post, Latara. I'm glad you're feeling more confident :)

windchime Your post is upsetting. Do you think hitting a 'lunatic', as you put it, would cure their bad behaviour? Centuries of corporal punishment would suggest not....

Some children find it very difficult to control their impulsive behaviour, no matter what the deterrent. Some do not understand what they are doing is wrong in the first place.

Yes, they need to be corrected, to be taught self control strategies and what acceptable behaviour is, but we are talking about very small children here, in this instance....Patience is needed, as they are given opportunity to learn.

Hitting them does not set a good example.

OP I don't think YABU unreasonable at all. Some people are just obnoxious and labelling them as having a personality disorder doesn't do any favours for people who genuinely do have a personality disorder.
It is appropriate though to have compassion for a child who shows particularly obnoxious behaviour and to be gentle with them at times, if they are experiencing abuse at home then demonstrate bad behaviour in school then what is the point in shouting at them? Kindness can go a long way for some children.

The problems with having a PD come when it either hasn't been diagnosed so the person is unaware of how their behaviour affects others & therefore can do nothing about it; or when it has been diagnosed but they haven't yet been able to access Psychological treatment to change their behaviour and / or medication if necessary.

Then it could be said that it's not the person's fault if they behave badly.

Also sometimes the problems are amplified if the person with a PD is an addict too (PDs often go with other Mental Health conditions).

I'm lucky not to be an addict & to be quite a strong person; if I had more of an addictive personality or less of a support network or was a less strong person then I too could be one of those people with EUPD who no-one likes dealing with.
(EUPD is Emotionally Unstable PD - the more accurate name for Borderline).

Silent

Some people are just obnoxious and labelling them as having a personality disorder doesn't do any favours for people who genuinely do have a personality disorder.

How can you actually know which are 'just obnoxious'? In the absence of knowledge of a diagnosis, I would allow anything to be a possibility....a momentary dysfunction, a phase of dysfunctional behaviour, more long term dysfunctional behaviour, a disorder, a condition....

The point is, I would hope to be able to excuse a person's bad behaviour. I would also hope they could overcome it, before causing too much damage and that any damage caused could be rectified. I would acknowledge what I saw was wrong and do all I could to protect myself and others, though.

Re: 'corporal punishment' my dad remembers being caned at school and all it did was to cause deep resentment towards the teachers.

He also says that some of the teachers seemed to actually enjoy caning their pupils.

It didn't stop my dad misbehaving with his classmates outside of school where there was no caning - they started heath fires and did other anti-social behaviour.

As for kids with 'problems' they just ended up being caned repeatedly because obviously corporal punishment does not cure ADHD or any other MH condition. Or they were sent to 'borstal' (secure units).

jimjam I agree about finding the cause of the behaviour.
With adults though, it's harder I think. Mainly (and especially?) when you get married to someone wo knowing about their condition (because they don't). Because when they are adult and working and fathers you do expect a much higher level if personal responsibility. You do expect to manage to control their temper for the dcs fir example, even if they are very sensitive to noise and struggle with it.

So when you have someone who behave appallingly then I think that the possibility of PD or ASD or whatever can be raised to explain. But the harder sort is to know when to throw the towel because even though you have try to understand the whys behind the behaviour, even though the person has try to improve and change, it's still too much.
What I would find very sad indeed is to not mention the possibility it could be PD or ASD because you then take the risk if saying PD=wanker or you just remove the opportunity for that person to learn more about themselves and change.

And yes it can be a gamble and the person might just be a twat. But I'm thinking it's worth taking that risk iyswim.

smokepole
"BrainyMess. If you have time you could watch Dr Temple Grandin a (world renowned Animal Scientist) ASD and other Autistic traits sufferer talk about the Autistic Brain .

One thing she says is the importance of being told how to behave from a young age, for instance how to behave at the dining table during meals. The National Autistic Society also suggest the best way to help Autistic people learn how to behave and interact is by showing them why and how it will benefit them..."

Thanks smokepole.
I was actually thinking of Temple Grandin, shes fantastic. I have seen the movie and watched a few of her videos on YouTube too.

She also said she could not sell herself but could sell her work, through which she was accepted.

Its been a difficult few weeks since I was diagnosed. I think now I have to accept the neurotypical world will never give a damn about me or other adults with Aspergers.
Instead I have to play to my strengths and nurture effective coping strategies for my anxiety and other difficulties.

At least now I understand

The problem with a lot of mumsnet arm chair diagnosis is that we are only getting third hand descriptions of some signs of a problem, very rarely do we hear tge symptoms, most doctors would be hard pressed to make a diagnosis of any illness with only half the information!

When posts have led to a diagnosis being made by a proffessional, it's often when the poster has been able to give information on how the person themself feels, I'm pretty sure that's what makes the difference between uniformed guess and fairly accurate help.

Following on - in a way - from Where's post. If you have an undiagnosed PD, ASD or other mental wiring difference, 3 things are going to happen: You'll have a strong feeling that you're different; you'll feel very frustrated that other people don't seem to 'get it'; you'll be shocked to find that other people think there's something wrong with you.

Depending on both the nature of your difference and your own character, the idea of diagnosis could be a huge relief: it could explain you, as it were, and offer strategies for reducing the frustration in your life; or it could feel like the worst possible insult: you won't tolerate any suggestion that you need to change at all.

One thing that's not going to happen, diagnosed or not, is a treatment to make your thoughts & feelings like everyone else's. You will always feel a bit like 'normals' are some other species, with whom you only have a certain amount in common. This isn't meant as an insult - I'm quoting from hundreds of blogs by differently-wired writers. Whether this inter-species mismatch (as they say it feels) is a source of sadness, anger or indifference to you depends on the variables above. If sadness, you're likely to engage with treatments to help you, and those who love you, to adjust.

But wiring differences make it very hard, even sometimes impossible, for you to understand how 'normals' see things. You might not even believe there are such things as common human experiences that differ from yours. I think this is why threads like this often disintegrate. Some posters experience very black/white thinking, which doesn't allow for amateur speculation - even if the amateurs are very well informed - on possible diagnoses/explanations for odd-seeming behaviour. Some can't accept that their behaviour does seem odd to NT people. Some simply feel the rest of the world should adjust to them or piss off. If these posters could just take it as given that most 'normals' find it helpful to explore possible reasons for distressing behaviour, we'd probably get a bit further.

It's a big ask for some. At the same time there are plenty of neurologically atypical posters who do appreciate this, and who contribute greatly to the sum of overall understanding. I am thankful to them.

The other problem with armchair diagnosis is a PD diagnosis needs to be made by a psychologist or psychiatrist. A GP is not deemed qualified enough to do it but if he/she suspects a PD they refer the pt on to a specialist.
As someone who has practised as a medical doctor, I am NOT qualified enough to diagnose a PD, even with someone I know in RL. I might suspect one, but I would not have the level of knowledge required to make a Dx.
Many of the armchair Dr Phils on here do not hold qualifications in healthcare and so have no right to be writing stuff like this.
I should add that even if a top consultant psychiatrist uses MN, even they would not be able to diagnose such a complex condition on-line.

But it's not about performing a medical diagnosis, ral ... it's about comprehension.

The problem with a lot of mumsnet arm chair diagnosis is that we are only getting third hand descriptions of some signs of a problem, very rarely do we hear tge symptoms, most doctors would be hard pressed to make a diagnosis of any illness with only half the information!

yes second hand information, and it’s highly debatable whether a husband or wife are able to give that information about their partner impartially enough without projecting and twisting and being selective? When people come on to a forum like this with problems like these, the relationship is most likely on unstable ground already. None of these make the best set of circumstances for “stranger diagnosis via partners retelling of symptoms”

When posts have led to a diagnosis being made by a proffessional, it's often when the poster has been able to give information on how the person themself feels, I'm pretty sure that's what makes the difference between uniformed guess and fairly accurate help.

The way I understand it is how one feels dictates how one reacts. How can anyone even start to diagnose a poster’s partner via the internet without even knowing how the person being spoken about feels? Fight, flight or freeze responses come about in all of us because of how we feel. My husband might be able to retell to someone I react in a certain set of circumstances, what he can’t do with any accuracy is tell how I feel. And I guess because of that I see little point in armchair diagnosing. Anything beyond “I would recommend he/she see a psychologist” is outside of my remit, and should really be outside of most peoples’.

As someone who has practised as a medical doctor, I am NOT qualified enough to diagnose a PD, even with someone I know in RL. I might suspect one, but I would not have the level of knowledge required to make a Dx. Many of the armchair Dr Phils on here do not hold qualifications in healthcare and so have no right to be writing stuff like this. I should add that even if a top consultant psychiatrist uses MN, even they would not be able to diagnose such a complex condition on-line.

My thoughts exactly. If top psychs wouldn’t go down the road of diagnosing
a) via the internet, and
b) via a third party (i.e the wife describing her husband’s symptoms and coping mechanisms)
then why is it done on here daily?

I mentioned earlier about my npd mum. She would convince 90% of mumsnet that any person she chose to post about is mad/bad/crazy. Not because the people around her are crazy. It’s because my mum’s perceptions are skewed. How she views the world, and those in it, is disordered. Because of her pd and her histrionic traits. But a MH check is not required before posting.

If you have an undiagnosed PD, ASD or other mental wiring difference, 3 things are going to happen: You'll have a strong feeling that you're different; you'll feel very frustrated that other people don't seem to 'get it'; you'll be shocked to find that other people think there's something wrong with you.

based on my experience of a handful of people with PDs (different ones admittedly), and with a lot of the reading I have done of the subject. I disagree with one bit here GarlicNovember. I would say the PDs I know thought (think) they were totally normal, it was the rest of the world that was wrong and weird.

not sure what tenses to use here, past or present, as some people I know with PD have reached a very high level of awareness after diagnosis and treatment, so past tense for them, and present tense for those who think everyone else is mad and they're just dandy.

"those who think everyone else is mad and they're just dandy"

I might not have put it in such colloquial terms, LC, but

a MH check is not required before posting.

Exactly! Sorry for staccato posts, lunch on the hob!

Hmm. Sorry, LC, I misunderstood you there. You meant we can't tell whether a poster's the dysfunctional one, making stuff up? I don't happen to agree with that - MNers aren't thick (well, not all of us are ) But, even if your mother posted some rubbish here about you - and was believed - she'd still only be getting advice on dealing with a situation she describes as uncomfortable for her. As she's not NT, she wouldn't be able to take that advice properly on board, would she? Other posters would notice that, even if she'd fooled them at first.

When my mother - who's adorable most of the time - came to family therapy with me, she was invited to tell me what horrid things I'd done to her and the consequences. Her very long reply was all about how much she worried about me, couldn't sleep, she worried so much it affected her health ... you get the picture! The facilitator didn't need to diagnose her to cut her short. It was clear enough that she isn't emotionally 'normal'.

Once again - and for the last time, I hope, as I'm bordering on over-investment in this - when respondents on problem threads posit the idea that the person under discussion might not be NT, it isn't with the aim of diagnosing that person! It's offered as a possible explanation for the bizarre things that are happening to the OP. For the OP to consider, not the other person. To aid comprehension.

when respondents on problem threads posit the idea that the person under discussion might not be NT, it isn't with the aim of diagnosing that person! It's offered as a possible explanation for the bizarre things that are happening to the OP. For the OP to consider, not the other person. To aid comprehension.

I agree, this is the positive side of considering the possibility that someone might not be NT, might not have the same thought processes. I too think it can help comprehension of why people behave in ways which may be hurtful to others.

However, I think there is also the more sinister side of calling into question someone's mental integrity, that is with the sole purpose to discredit them (monopolizing on the lack of absolutes, of what is considered mentally well) and minimalize the validity what they say / their views/ their experiences.

As ever, the motive behind actions is important but something which is difficult to determine for sure, especially on MN.

Yes, that's true, capsium. But there again, we're crossing over from 'possible explanation' to 'diagnosis'. If an OP were to march her partner off to the doctor, insisting he had a neurological disorder, a proper diagnostic process would begin and the OP's thread would have no bearing on the outcome.

I can see that some malicious person might avidly gather information on PDs with the aim of gaslighting somebody into being diagnosed - but they can get that information anywhere. A Mumsnet thread isn't likely to be a definitive source!

I remember a couple of threads where your feedback has been crucial in prompting posters to get their partners to go back to their doctors - you didn't diagnose the partners, though You provided further information.

Ooh, do you? I don't remember these threads? Are you sure it was me giving feedback?

Yes, you were very careful and somewhat awesome :)

Wow, nice to know, wish I could remember it though..

Garlic, someone like my mother, posting on a forum like this would be massively enabling for her and possibly dangerous for those around her. It would take a year for me to explain exactly why, and blow my identity out the water at the same time, suffice to say, it can be very enabling for people with disordered thinking to have a willing and believing audience that validate their disordered thinking.

when respondents on problem threads posit the idea that the person under discussion might not be NT, it isn't with the aim of diagnosing that person! It's offered as a possible explanation for the bizarre things that are happening to the OP. For the OP to consider, not the other person. To aid comprehension.

Maybe this is made more difficult because we’re possibly talking of two totally different things. You may be talking about relatively “tame” online diagnoses. And I am talking about a downright irresponsible ones. A “gosh your partner doesn’t sound totally NT, I would be encouraging him to see a psych” type of reply, I have no issues with. It’s the same thread where people regularly pop up with “your partner obviously has xyz personality disorder, he ticks 6 of the 9 boxes for that PD. Leave the bastard. Your life and your kids’ lives will be made a living hell if you remain with him” that I disagree with.

I’m also not sure if I buy into the “to aid comprehension” part of this either. If my only knowledge of PDs was what I learned on mumsnet, well it wouldn’t be much of an aid, as very few accurate things are ever posted on here about PDs. If I was trying to aid someone who suspected that their partner may be suffering from a PD, or just wanted to explore that possibility, there are plenty of good books and websites I could point them to.

And also on this same “aid comprehension” part. When I first started to suspect my husband wasn’t quite like most people, I went to my GP (also DH’s GP) who I have an excellent relationship with. He spent best part of an hour talking with me but refused point blank to even go near a possible diagnosis. He said something like “from what you’ve just said maybe he could have any one of 10 or more MH diagnoses, or maybe he has none”. I then went myself for a few sessions with a psychologist, just hoping she could point me in the right direction to read about, study up on, and she said the exact same as our GP. She wouldn’t even rule things in or out. She, like our GP, said he should go to his GP and ask for a referral to a psych. That was the only thing they both agreed on, based on what I had said, they both agreed that it probably was a good idea for my husband to seek psych help, and my suggesting that to him wouldn't be pushy.

Now if GPs and psychs won’t even go near diagnosis territory with a wife they know fairly well, face to face, with enough time to explain in enough depth, well there must be a very valid reason for that.

Lemon I agree, people shouldn't be diagnosing on-line.

When I talk about helping comprehension, it is only in terms of that their might be a possible explanation, that would make hurtful behaviour seem more reconcilable, when people are understandably feeling hurt and wondering what might have caused such behaviour.

Personally, I couldn't even hope to attempt a diagnosis and wouldn't want to. I honestly believe, labelling someone with a serious, potentially life changing condition is something which should not be entered into lightly, at all.

lemon what did your DH do? Did he go to see his GP?

And what should someone do if their partner refuses see his GP?
I can't talk about PD as I know nothing about it. But with AS, where there is no medication etc available and very very little help for adults, then should that person do? Just give up because they dont have a formal diagnosis? And even
Though it is totally possible to make some adjustements that will make everyone life's much easier?

I agree with garlic earlier comment that some people would find the idea if having a diagnosis hugely helpful and will seek that help. But for others, the mere idea that they might on he spectrum is a no go area because they aren't 'weird' or 'thick'. My DH took the suggestion he might be on the spectrum as the biggest insult ever. Then what do you? Just give up and leave?