To be sick of personality disorder being used as an excuse for bad behaviour?

[fluffydressinggown]

I see it all the time on here, people say their partner/friend/family member has behaved badly and someone comes along and says maybe it is a personality disorder.

Personality disorder does not necessarily make you a bad person or give you bad behaviour. Some people are just dicks. Not dicks with a mental health problem.

In work a collegue does fuck all and it's blamed on SAD. Everyone else has to take on her work load during the winter so she can just stand around literally doing nothing.

that makes me think your employer is a taking the mickey a bit here. If the same employee had broken her leg and arm, surely a replacement would be drafted in to cover the 6 month recovery period? No real idea what the employers responsibilities are here, but in your position I would sure as heck find out. Imagine the same logic being used in a 2 man work group. 1 man down for 6 months (could be for any reason, broken legs, SAD, whatever) so the remaining person gets to double their workload for half of the year. That can't be right, or I imagine legal.

The thing about diagnoses (of personality disorders etc) is they tend to involve looking at patterns of (symptomatic) dysfunctional behaviours.

Sometimes dysfunctional behaviours fall into a pattern and a diagnoses can be made, sometimes they don't. Often the pattern does not have to be an exact fit for diagnoses and a spectrum of severity exists within the diagnosis.

So determining whether someone is actually just behaving 'badly' is, IMO, a futile pursuit. Diagnosis simply involves looking at behaviours and finding a dysfunctional pattern, not at someone's core being.

Now, even when, brain physiology and levels of hormone production can be shown to be different from 'standard', in people who have received diagnosis, it is impossible to determine whether set patterns of behavior have affected the development, or visa versa. The relationship between behaviour and brain development and physiology are hugely complex and intertwined.

I was making the obvious point that we are both saying same thing. So why disagree?

I have aspergers myself, and believe that some with ASD can be wankers. Why? because empathy is a spectrum too (I believe), and those lacking in it are likely to be wankers whatever their diagnosis. Also, those with ASD communicate differently, so assuming the NT woman is complaining about the ASD man. He probably has similar complaints about her style of communication. For example, I find it hard to communicate with people who are not direct

Not one person on this thread has said no one with AS can be a wanker. Just feel need to clear that up :) again

Well said whitecandles. PD's are a reality for some people and they're not fun or an excuse; they just are. And, those who are affected by someone's behaviour -- whether they have a PD or not, have a right to protect their own interests. Understanding is not the same as putting up with bad behaviour.

I have a friend with a PD -- most of the time his life is miserable and he can be the most fun person to be around. His behaviour is difficult sometimes and understanding where it comes from helps me sort out the stuff that matters from the stuff that doesn't.

Problem with pop psychology is that terms are knocked around and playground diagnosis are made with a superficial understanding of what the conditions really mean.

Perhaps I should use the term behaving badly then, because that comes up time and time again on mumsnet, but then again we only hear one side of the story. specifically NT woman with AS partner

Yes devil. Just wanted to clear that up since people have been claiming that is what has been said and it wasn't :)

You know how MN I'd :)

I didn't read all of the thread, too impulsive :)

Problem with pop psychology is that terms are knocked around and playground diagnosis are made with a superficial understanding of what the conditions really mean.

Absolutely! and sweeping generalisations are made along the lines of
John has x-pd, does y, therefore everyone with x-pd must do y, and if Peter doesn't do y, then Peter doesn't have a pd, he is just a wanker (uaually followed with LTB).

Understanding is not the same as putting up with bad behaviour.

So true, I have successful relationships with family members with a pd diagnosis. And I have family members with pd diagnosis who I would cross the road to avoid if I saw them walk towards me.

usually*

Or rather is. Was in shop queue

To me dysfunctional behaviour and bad behaviour are the same thing. Dysfunctional behaviour is bad and being bad is dysfunctional. However no single person is without flaw.

Not to say we cannot choose to improve our behaviour, or correct someone on their behaviour but everyone comes from different starting points. Some people find some things more challenging than others.

So I excuse, but would acknowledge when something is wrong, seek correction, protect myself and others from any harm caused.

To answer the original question OP yanbu. There are so many different types of PD anyway you can't lump "personality Disorder" as a term anyway.

I'm nodding along vigorously with capsium's posts here, but I think there are two separate conversations in this thread - plus several intense diversions

Strand 1 says: Mental health conditions are complex. Diagnosis is a precise science. You can't put a person's behaviour down to a MH condition until the subject has been diagnosed by an expert. Then discusses experience of the diagnostic processes and mental healthcare.

Strand 2 says: Mental health conditions are complex. Diagnosis is imprecise, and often not done at all. In everyday life diagnostics can help us understand a person's abnormal behaviours, then discuss a range of possible responses to their behaviour.

They look like similar discussions, and there is certainly a lot of crossover, but they're essentially two different threads.

... I should have said dysfunctional rather than abnormal - quite a lot of dysfunctional behaviours are pretty normal!

The issue with strand 1 is that people don't suggest that the OP puts someone's unpleasant behaviour down to a mental health or neurodevelopmental problem and that's it.

The suggestion is generally made in order to inform the OP that the behaviour they are describing may be the result of a particular underlying condition so that the OP can use that information is whatever way is appropriate to that situation, e.g. find out more about that condition, request an assessment, change how they interact with that person.

People don't generally post "Hi OP. Your DH sounds just like my friend who has AS, Therefore your DH unquestionably has AS and can't help behaving like a dick."

I see myself as more strand 2 than strand 1, except there's a very pertinent point about diagnosis and it's imprecision/precision that affects both strands.

I don't think psychiatrists and psychologists are fool proof, they absolutely make mistakes. But a random psychologist is going to do a better job of diagnosing someone they see face to face, once a week for a year, than a random MN poster, who has never met the person, and is only hearing second hand from the wife, mother, daughter in law, sister, mother in law about how the person is.

As someone with a npd mother with histronic traits, I would hate to think what picture my mother could paint on mumsnet of any person she chose to post about. According to my mother she is the only sane and normal person, it's everyone else around her (from children to neighbours to doctors to friends) who are mad/bad/disordered/dysfunctional. She wouldn't fool a psych, but she could fool mumsnet quite easily.

Gokdmandra is spot on.

Lemon I don't think people should attempt to diagnose every bad/dysfunctional behaviour, either. I don't actually think there are enough conditions in the book to cover everybody's dysfunctional behaviour! Added to this the DSM keeps changing...

What I think is possible though, is to moot dysfunction as a possibility, either long term or a blip. It can help with the 'excusing', as it can explain, at least in part, how people come to behave in shockingly bad ways.

Of course there exists the more sinister motive of throwing into question somebody's mentally stability. When this is done, with the sole purpose to to discredit someone, monopolizing on the lack of absolutes in the whole field of what constitutes mentally well, the knock of affects could be catastrophic, in terms of being allowed the freedoms people normally are given in society.

saintlyjimjams

No-one has suggested that.

I did not claim anyone had? The paragraph you quote was the conclusion of my analogy, putting forth a basic, non-controversial point of view, in an attempt to explain my apparently controversial one.

It does get pretty dull (from the other side) to hear that people with ASD will always do well with the right environment

I agree. I wasn't claiming that people with ASD would always do well given the right environment either.

My opinion is that the expectations of an individual need to be appropriate to that individual. It goes both ways. Non-existent expectations are damaging; too high expectations are damaging.

Further, if anyone can follow my tangent, I feel that there is often an assumption that interactions and relationships only occur between one person without disabilities and one person with disabilities. That isn't true. There isn't always one totally non-disabled person (with plenty of mental and physical resources) who can just give the benefit of the doubt and make all the effort.

I have been diagnosed with 'traits of' EUPD (as well as depression with psychosis).

As a result of the EUPD I do get very angry & upset sometimes excessively so in relation to the problem. Luckily it's happening less often because of my medication.

I'm aware of my behaviour & don't think allowances should be made for it as I do feel when I'm getting angry and with a lot of effort could control it.

My sister's boyfriend also has anger problems & has been sectioned in the past. He has been taught methods of self control which he uses.

I think that if you are aware you have a certain problem then you should try to do your best to overcome it. And it shouldn't be used as an excuse to behave badly in relationships.