Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

Women can and have been prosecuted for sexual assault- I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise are they?

Are you sure that this is a dialogue you ought/need to be having with your son? Sounds like you risk projecting a whole lot of paranoia onto him. I have a problem with this whole mothers "teaching sons not to rape" thing, which this seems to me to be an extension of. Although I can see your intentions are good, there is something in this of the women-blaming-women... If a boy rapes, it's because his mother didn't teach him not too... I know this is is slightly different but I'm wondering if you aren't taking on too much responsibility for your sons sexual attitudes. Isn't it a little bit, like, none of your business?

Hakluyt - there are several other comments in the thread, along the lines of "well, it is so rare (how does anyone know? - as per my observation that this case will not be counted in false allegations for both technical reasons and because it is extremely difficult to prove a negative) that I consider it unimportant and don't have any room for sympathy for those who are victims of such lies"
However, my point is really that there are many other online forums which have expressed this kind of attitude much more strongly and this had a very negative effect on my sons.
As for the "well, your sons are more likely to be the subjects of male rape than be falsely accused" this may well be true. However, it doesn't change the fact that their personal experience is that they do not know anyone who has been the victim of male rape whereas they DO know someone who has been the victim of false allegations so naturally, that will loom larger in their minds.

Woah, Balaboosta - so I should ignore their anxieties and fears should I? I think you may have misread the scenario. My sons are in their 20s and in the past I have naturally talked to them about appropriate and inappropriate sexual behaviour, respecting women and so on. But their exposure to some other online forums recently, which they went on, out of curiousity after finding out about what their friend was facing, meant that they came to me really worried and I had to reassure them that No, you shouldn't generally be worried that if you have acted responsibly, ensured that the girl is fully consenting, etc etc then you are very unlikely to face false allegations. But what they had read led them to believe that actually a certain type of feminist thinking was very much "false rape - who cares - when there is real rape to worry about?" A false choice, of course. So this discussion has been very much at their instigation, not mine.

They are in their 20s???

What forums were they looking at, out if interest?

Freudianslipper - I took that quote to answer a previous poster who claimed that this phrase had not been used!

As for "no man I know ..." That was precisely the situation for my sons until it happened to my son's friend. They would never have dreamt that that was likely to happen to them or anyone they knew. But it has and you show a misunderstanding of human nature if you think that nasty comments like the "shit" one are not going to stick in their minds rather more clearly than the rest of what a commenter may say.

As for stats, if you are diagnosed with an extremely rare life-threatening disease, I doubt that you take much comfort from the fact that it is extremely rare.

Hakluyt - mainly newspaper-linked. Pretty mainstream.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to your friend's son. It must have been terrible for him.

"As for stats, if you are diagnosed with an extremely rare life-threatening disease, I doubt that you take much comfort from the fact that it is extremely rare."

But I would take great comfort from the fact the likelihood was that nobody I knew was likely to get it too, and not feel the need to spend a lot of time warning them about it when there are muchore likely threats to their health and well being.

Thank you Trapper! It has been horrendous - fortunately over in a relatively short time (4 months) but it felt like a lot longer for this lovely family. Their son is now recovering, with the help of anti-depressants and a lot of support.

Hakluyt - you're right, it is extremely unlikely that, given their upbringing, role models and character, they will face this problem. I have encouraged them, in response, to support rape charities to remind them of the much more likely scenario that a daughter or friend may suffer the horrors of rape. So I do not WARN my sons of this danger but I do try and reassure them that - contrary to a lot of pretty callous online comments they have read - that injustice matters and that not all feminists are hard-hearted and uncaring about men.

But your sons have not been diagnosed with a very rare life threatening disease strange comparison

Your sons are very likely to know probably more than one girl/woman who has been sexually assaulted or raped and has not reported it you know why

Have they not read the headlines of the very publicised Ched Evans case and seen how not only how his victim has been treated she has had to change her name to protect herself and the very common belief all over forums, radio phone in's, his very public support groups, some areas of the media encourage well she was drunk went back to the hotel (not with him) so how can she have been raped she knew what she was going back there for

All seems a tad hysterical to me why not just say well yes sadly there are a few who may not take false accusations seriously but the vast majority do but you seem to want to cling on to this feminists do not care blah blah well vast majority do but there are many things we need to care about this might not be on top on the list

And there is nothing stoping men supporting other men but so many would prefer to attack feminists for not supporting or always siding with men

Like Hakluyt I don't lie awake at night worrying about rare diseases even though I know a young man who went for a scan to investigate a slipped disc and came home with a '1 in a million' spinal cord tumour which killed him. Very sad, very rare and outside of anyone's control.

The numbers do matter. Sexual violence against women affects women as a class, even women who have never been victims of it. False rape accusations are awful for the individual but do not affect men as a class (unless you include those whinging frat boys who are rallying against American universities starting to take rape seriously and giving men the idea that if they rape a girl on campus they may not graduate, which is so unfair because they always lock their bicycles up)

I think the biggest damage done to men who are falsely accused is not the odd 'feminist' objecting to discussions about rape being railroaded into a discussion about false accusations, but rape apologists. Forums are full of bile for Ched Evans victim along the lines of 'if she was so wasted how does she know she didn't consent' and 'She was already shagging CM, so of course she was up for it with CE'

When people show such shocking ignorance about consent and female bodily autonomy, it does make it easy to think that a man who protests his innocence, maybe does believe in his innocence, but that doesn't actually make him innocent. The sooner men stand up and say consent through coercion, assumed consent because 'she's a slut', consent through being asleep in the same room as a rapist, consent through smiling at a man at a party, consent through walking home together is not actually consent at all then it would make people believe malicious accusations, rather than just thinking the accused has the same warped idea of consent that appears to be so prevalent.

This is not something feminists can fix.

"that injustice matters and that not all feminists are hard-hearted and uncaring about men."

You would have thought that once a man reaches his 20s his life experience would have shown him that.

Feminism came about to make life better and fairer for women.
I was brought up by an anti-feminist (my Mother) as a teenager we disagreed on many things (as you do). One of her opinions was that if you dressed like a slut you deserve whatever happens to you (ie. sexual assault, rape etc.); I was horrified at the time. Another one was contraception is the Women's priority. Again I was of the stance, why should it be? I was just so shocked how pro men she was.
Years down the line, I started to see her point of view.
Although maybe going against the ethos of feminism, isn't protecting women better and fairer than not protecting women? As much as we try to think we are equal, we are clearly not - but that dosen't mean we are inferior, just different with different needs. In fact protecting ourselves says the opposite. It says "we are special and we deserve to be treated as so".
Men have been put on this Earth to procreate and that desire is stronger than any woman could understand. They do (i'm sorry men) see and think in simpler terms (biological fact) i.e. they are more black and white. They process images quicker than digest words and this I feel is how something like date rate happens. If you dress provocatively, act a even a little flirtatious and then go back to their/your place for a "coffee" then they WILL want and expect to have sex with you. You HAVE given the Green light. It obviously dosen't make it right but by that point a man has lost all control. There's no point saying "well he shouldn't". What he saw, was a woman asking for sex - he didn't hear "it's just coffee, nothing else is gonna happen right?" or "I just wanna chat and get to know you better". All a man understands at that moment (when the juice is bubbling away like Mount Vesuvius) is what he can see and what he can see is you're up for it!
We have to accept this as fact. And stop trying to want it all.
I am a feminine woman and proud of it. I don't need or want to be the same as a man. Treated with as much respect yes and perhaps even more because we ARE the weaker sex (biological fact) and we have the most important job in the world which is the privilage to bear children.
Woman should be put on pedestals and I don't understand why any woman would not want to be cherished.
I have an adult Son myself who I am proud to say is very respectful of women. I hope i have had some hand in that.
I know my comments will outrage some people as it did me when my Mother said similar to me 35 years ago . . . however I have lived a full life and these are the conclusions my experiences have brought me to. In hindsight, i think my Mother is a very wise women.

AloneReed, what a very depressing and contemptuous view you have of men. As a feminist, of course, I think much more highly of them than that.

Alone, for once in my life you have rendered me speechless.

It obviously dosen't make it right but by that point a man has lost all control

Thankfully, the law does not see things this way, Alonereed.

Well maybe it should and then maybe date rate wouldn't happen. Why does everything have to be the Man's responsibility?

That is one of the most anti-men things I have ever read. It's impressive that you also managed to be anti-women at the same time.

I will just add there, that rape will always happen but maybe if we increase respect for women it will happen less

AloneReed you have absolutely fascinating opinions. I mean that seriously, I am intrigued as to how you have reached this position. Do you mind me asking where you grew up? Am wondering about what cultural or religious influences there may have been.

You are playing fast and loose with the word "fact" there...

I have a much higher regard for men than to agree with your posts Alone