Mother of sons and feminism

[Adnerb95]

Germaine Greer's book The Female Eunuch was life-changing for me when I was at uni many years ago. I still consider myself a feminist, love to see equality of opportunity for women, hate misogyny, think we have a way to go still ... BUT I think some current branches of feminism are seriously messing with young men's heads! Any mention, for example, of a false rape allegation brings down the wrath of any number of online commentators, who immediately label you a rape apologist, as if you are making light of a hateful crime, with no excuse. Apparently, admitting that there are - not often, but occasionally - false allegations is something to be dismissed out of hand and treated as unimportant. A friend's son was recently accused of a rape following consensual sex because she was fearful of the repercussions from her (hitherto secret!) boyfriend. The hell of that family's experience which is now finally over - the police have decided on no further action and actually apologised to the young man - has been indescribable. But it was the online reactions to any mention of such an allegation possibly being untrue, that caused the most damage not just the this young man's thinking but to my sons and their friends as well. I have taught them to respect women, to be caring and thoughtful. Never to objectify women or use them in any way. But they find it difficult to deal with the attitudes which have ben revealed, which see all men as potential rapists, users and so on. Isn't it time for the feminist community to realise that one day they may have sons and they may find that their sons can also be used and abused? That sometimes their sons may have reason to fear the other sex, sad though that may be?

I agree we need to get the message across that no or not wanting to have sex is not always verbalised but you are always aware

we have to challenge this myth sadly too many believe it but i am quite sure even if they do the majority of men would stop if a woman said no it is not something that have experienced but unfortunately in many sex scenes a women says no and after a few seconds of persuasion she changes her mind or does she. i am not talking about porn films i am talking about love scenes hardly surprising this myth of no does not always mean no exists

I think a young, inexperienced, man who has been told all his life that unless and until he hears "no" he can put his penis wherever he chooses, is potentially (to my mind at least) more decent than a man who deliberately coerces women and ignores explicit "no".

If that young man does something he had been raised to think is OK, he becomes a rapist.

The rape is not excusable because of the messages he has been getting. Ideally he wouldn't even feel inclined to "have sex" with a woman who wasn't into it.

But I think we need to acknowledge that we (as a society) have been raising our boys to be rapists (or potential rapists) for decades.

The prevalence of sexual violence against women speaks to a level of acceptance that is entirely at odds with the official story of "most men" reviling "rapists".

The truth is that the performed fury at sex offenders functions to narrowly define what a rapist can be.

How many women up and down the country last night "had sex" when they were too drunk to consent? felt unable to say no because they were scared or intimidated? were "surprised" when a penis found its way into an orifice that wasn't expecting it? were asleep?

More than a handful, I would imagine. That kind of experience is not rare.

Every one of those women was raped.

And for every rape there is a rapist, many of whom don't have the faintest idea of what they did.

And if ever confronted, they will talk about "crying rape" and "changing minds" and morning after "regret".

But none of that changes the truth of what happened, what is happening every week, to countless women. Many of whom think it is entirely normal.

Most men of my acquaintance revile rapists.

I must be extraordinary lucky with my friends.

And I am not prepared to acknowledge in any way that I, as a part of "society", have been raising my sons to be rapists.

In fact, all men of my acquaintance to whom I have ever spoken about it, revile rapists.

Oh, your standard Hollywood fare a has a lot to answer for - both in terms of 'constantly ready and eager for sex men' as 'reluctant woman just needs a Real Man to teach her otherwise'

All the men in my life I am quite sure would agree that they despise rapists - I am not sure that all of them would understand having sex with a very inebriated woman who is not actively fighting them off as rape though. Or having sex with somebody who 'came on to them' and then changed their mind - I am not saying they would force sex on her but the term 'dick tease' would be (and has been) uttered.

I think you'd be hard-pushed to find a man who didn't say he reviled rapists. You'd hardly keep him as a friend if he did anyway.

True Petula. But being in the circles I move in, consent is discussed much more than it would normally be, I suspect.

I am sure you're right, and it is not a good sign really when it is only that group that is really discussing these things seriously. The more I think about it the more problematic I think the concept of "vanilla" sex is. Because it seems to imply that lack of consent in a "vanilla" situation is somehow less of a problem - that it's less risky to play fast and loose with the idea of consent because less "damage" will be done. The non-BDSM community should be taking it as seriously. I think this ties in with Lurcio's comments about fanfic

You have clearly not been raising your sons to be rapists.

But can you really argue that our society doesn't raise a significant (and frightening) number of its boys to be rapists.

All men say they revile rapists.

Especially the rapists.

"In fact, all men of my acquaintance to whom I have ever spoken about it, revile rapists."

Yes, all the men I have ever spoken about it rvile racists, of course they do.

I wouldn't bet my house on all of them knowing what rape is, though.

They say they revile rapists, but expect to get the last word on how "rapist" is defined.

I kind of love the bald simplicity of "don't put your dick where it's not welcome".

:O

It is so much clearer than "no means no".

I would be quite happy to bet my house on the fact that the men with whom I discussed consent on Friday night knew exactly what rape was.

Seems I move in more open circles where this is all discussed in more detail than the vanilla world is able to manage.

I'm sure the rapist Ched Evans reviles "real" rapists.

Not like him. Oh no.

I don't think it's a fault of the "vanilla world" as such - what we are talking about here is the influence of patriarchal society

I do things to men that most of you would baulk at. Do you honestly think I would be allowed back through the door of a club/event if I was stepping over boundaries? I can't rape, I don't possess a penis, but by fuck I can do harm. And emotional harm, given that my kink is control, really. The BDSSM community is very good, as a rule, at policing their own - no one who overstepped the mark wrt consent would be allowed back.

Sorry - not I can do harm - I could do harm.

I don't do anything ever without knowing exactly what I'm doing and where the boundaries are.

The point is that you can't tell anything about how likely a man is to be a rapist from his avowed hatred of rapists.

Of course some men get it.

And yes, it does sound like you move in circles where the concept of consent is more properly understood than it is generally.

Two or three years ago I read some very interesting articles under the umbrella "My rapist doesn't know he's a rapist".

I think that's where my ideas of responsibility to prevent my sons from being rapists were refined. Of course a well adjusted person won't drag a woman into a dark alley with a knife, but it's just as important to teach them to wait for enthusiastic consent and to explain that someone who is sleeping or intoxicated can't give consent of any kind.

The preferred alternative to "no means no" (although I'm sure that slogan did do a job in its day) is I think Only Yes Means Yes.

Warning - this is going to be graphic-ish and probably very clumsily phrased. So please, take the intent of what I'm going to say and don't pick every word to bits, if I phrase it a bit off.

In my sexual life, I'm probably quite akin to the vanilla stereotype of a bloke. I initiate the sex, it happens, ostensibly, to my likes and dislikes (not really but bear with me) I am the dominant one as a man tends to be portrayed and perceived as being dominant in vanilla-space.

I talk and talk and talk to my partner before the pants come off or the rope comes out to make sure what they like/dislike/want/don't want/what's ok/what's not ok. What's definitely off limits. What's definitely going to turn them on.

I have safe words. Stop immediately words. I watch my partner like a hawk to make sure they are enjoying what we are doing. I never drink and play. Ever. I also have non-verbal signs for when they are gagged and can't speak. I never ever overstep a boundary.

I have taught my sons, without the graphic details of their mother's sex life which I'm quite sure they don't need to know , to do the exact same.

Is this something most men don't do?

I would say most British people would find that level of communication excruciating, tbh.

That is probably part of the thing where women aren't supposed to enjoy sex (if you do you're "dirty", "slutty" etc, by contrast with a man as keen on sex who is "a real man" and other references to natural tendencies as seen on this thread) and therefore couldn't possibly ask for it.

You'd be accused of "ruining the moment" if you discussed it in advance.

And pre-consent withdrawn by non-verbal signs is going to be a pretty skilled thing to navigate.

there's what myempire said, which also ties into the problem of women potentially being in a situation where they don't know (or perhaps they do know) what the man will do if they don't appear to consent - so consent feels the safest option iyswim