"Boys will be boys"

[Amber76]

to think that the above is not an excuse for rough behaviour?

I have a 4 year old girl and an 18 month old boy. So far I've noticed little difference in the way they are and how they play. They've never wrestled each other but maybe he's a bit young. But I have never seen my girl try to wrestle another child - its just not something that has come up so far.

But we have a friend who has two young boys who are constantly play fighting and it can get very rough (things being knocked over in the house, my kids getting bumped into, etc.). They are constantly trying to kick or hit each other. My friend explains the very boisterous behaviour by just saying that all boys are like that. I don't agree and think it is a lazy excuse for bad behaviour. But I've also heard the same line trotted out at play groups and at birthday parties in relation to boys play fighting and trying to "kill" each other.

I am pregnant again and suspect it is a boy so am I going to have two little boys constantly wrestling each other for the next few years? Is this inevitable?!

Bollocks. Wrong thread

Play fighting and rough play does aide development in children and is a healthy thing to do.

Unless of course, like mine, your child has autism and doesn't know how to differentiate between play fighting and actual fighting, then it's important to just tell them no.

But there has been many studies in favour of rough play

Some kids rough house and some dont. Traditionally it tends to be boys but a lot of girls do to. I don't think people are being bad parents for letting thwor children play in a way others don't particularly like. Some of DS's friends like to playfight but i stop it because DS doesn't get it and takes it seriously but i've seen these other children happily playfight with others.

"I don't really understand the jumping on rough play. "

I don't think anyone here is jumping on rough play. Endless posters have said that their boys (and girls) like wrestling, play fighting etc.

What does seem to be a general agreement is that the phrase 'boys will be boys' is all too often used to excuse unacceptable behaviour. That could be fighting where only one side is playing, play fighting in the wrong place or at the wrong time, etc etc.

Generalising madly, I have to say the strongest proponents of 'well, it's all down to natural gender differences' that I know had children who were likely to break things in a house where they were visiting / thump a random small / shriek for attention when you were trying to speak to their parents and the like. Oh, and they only had boys, so didn't discover that they might also have had badly behaved girls!

It has fuck all to do with a different gender-based personality type. People use it as an excuse to fail to discipline their children appropriately ime. They are however doing their sons absolutely no favours in life by teaching them that violence and rudeness are acceptable. These are the boys forever destined to be outclassed as adults by more socially adept girls and boys.

I have boys, the wrestling kind

I also have a younger dd who seems to enjoy watching the wrestling

newpencilcase I really enjoyed trying to fit that comment into all the others!!
I have 3 kids fairly close in age DD11 DS9 DD8 and whilst they all wrestle at times it is DS9 who really loves to wrestle. He has cousins that are his age and he just lives for the occasions he will see them so they can wrestle. He is actually very placid by nature and there is absolutely nothing malicious about the wrestling. Obviously occasionally someone will get hurt but they deal with that knowing it was unintentional. My husband initiates wrestling with all the kids.The girls usually tell him to leave them alone.My youngest will occasionally oblige her brother with a quick wrestle but usually ends up kicking him when she feels overpowered!Whilst I agree that kids are socialised into different roles I also believe that male/female brains are wired differently and we do have a different balance of hormones,so I think it is a mixture of both but there are plenty exceptions to the rules.Just Googled the subject and whilst a recent neuroscientist claims there is no difference,most studies suggest there is. This one was interesting.

www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ

I found this interesting because I am quite a tomboy and grew up with 3 brothers.I am also over 6' tall and have never been a girly girl but when I have discussions with my mum and my friends about what I find frustrating about my husband,there seem to be common threads that alot of women experience when dealing with men. I personally find it can aid understanding to accept that maybe we are wired slightly differently.

"whilst a recent neuroscientist claims there is no difference,most studies suggest there is. "

You might like the book 'Delusions of Gender' - it's definitely not the case that 'most studies say there is' - there's an awful lot of bad science and biased reporting out there. I'm not sure we can say there isn't either - very much 'not proven in either direction'.

The whole issue is obviously complicated further by the fact that parents who believe there are innate gender differences will inevitably and unconsciously reflect this in their parenting, whereas those who believe it's mostly nurture will equally tend to encourage and reward non-stereotypical behaviour!

I have DS (3) and DD (7) and I am afraid that they conform in a horribly to typical stereotypes. Perhaps this is because I have never actively resisted these or perhaps it's just the way they are.

I completely agree that often violence or aggression is a sign of frustration.

I think we expect an awful lot of children these days and not all of them are the better for it. Yes you can 'teach' them to do anything but some children will find this harder than others, regardless of gender, and that might have repercussions later on.

For example, DS1 has never been great in restaurants. However now we expect small children to be able I sit for hours at a table. Don't get me wrong - he is fine when he's eating, but the wait for food and then lingering after is torture.

That's not because he's badly behaved, it's because children are not designed to do that.

I think I was 9 before I set foot in a restaurant

Things like this, combined with more screen time, lots of sitting at school, car journeys etc take their toll.

Children are SUPPOSED to be running wild and climbing trees, not beating the crap out of each other in the sitting room.

My dd (8) and ds (6), while not really play fighting, are constantly pulling at each other and it drives me mad. They are doing it in a fun way but you just know it is only a matter of time until one of them gets hurt or falls over and then the tears start. I am always telling them to stop but it makes little difference. It didn't start until they were at school so not something they did as toddlers. They don't do it to other kids though and would generally be well behaved in friends houses (or they would certainly hear about it from me!). I have a friend though with 2 boys who would often comment on how good my 2 are and say that it is different when you have 2 boys. I do think though that she lets them away with murder and generally feel on edge when they are at my house as they always seem to be hanging off the door handles and kicking things around!

Oops posted too soon

dD is quiet, shy, unadventurous, likes drawing, imaginative play, loves her dolls still

dS is boisterous, noisy, active, likes running, jumping and indeed fighting

No-one in this household is up for fighting with him as DD, I and even DH aren't into it but he still really loves to take any opportunity for some physical rolling around if he can get it. He really, really enjoys it if his uncles or older children of friends will do this with him. His little face lights up and he talks about it afterwards and asks to do it again.

I can't see anything wrong in letting him do this activity that he enjoys as long as it is by consent and certain rules are observed eg not actual hitting, biting or hurting. He has learnt that play stops very quickly if you do this stuff.

When playing with his friends of the same age I've noticed that they sort of check if the other one wants to play like this eg give a little push and run away and see if the other chases or make aggressive face and shout raah and if the other kid is not interested he does not persist (he is used to rejection from DD on this front)

DD never, ever did this. She and her friends were massively into dressing up and pretending at this age and also drawing and craft stuff which DS has not interest in. He does like playing with little figures which she did but hers were usually being mummy and daddy and his are usually fighting.

I have no idea if this is gender related or just personality but I do object to things that boys typically like such as play fighting being demonised. I notice that in DDs class at school it's mainly the boys who are labelled troublemakers and I worry a bit for DS as he grows older that he will not find school as easy as she does.

"Children are SUPPOSED to be running wild and climbing trees, not beating the crap out of each other in the sitting room."

YY to this! I lived in a housing co-op on a farm when dd was small, when the weather was bad and the kids were all causing trouble, we threw them out to climb and jump around in the hay barn, they always came back more civilised in a couple of hours

Boys will be boys because they are allowed to. Most children like being a bit rough and tumble. Girls just get told off and quieted for doing the same thing.

vdb the question is, why are we wired differently? As I posted before, the general consensus is that the changes in the brain are not inherent, but due to culture and socialisation. (Like reinforcing stereotypical 'male' behaviour with words like 'tomboy'...)

Some of you should come and do playground duty. Then tell me if 'playfighting' is acceptable. Try sorting out what has happened and who hit who first...that is why we spend so much time telling children not to do it, and keep their personal spaces . Some children have no idea of what is acceptable, and even worse are the parents,especially dads,who ( I have witnessed before and after school) encourage, kicking , punching ,stamping on feet and grabbing in headlocks, etc,as acceptable 'fun'. How can we tell children not to do it to each other,when the adults in their home lives encourage it?

Again, there is a difference between play fighting and actual violence.

In my son's year, it's the kids who don't do play fighting at home that do all the kicking and punching.

Well said jamdonut- I have worked as a playground supervisor- play fighting is never acceptable because of the reasons you describe.

It always goes to far, some kids don't understand the boundaries and inevitably someone gets hurt and tempers flared.
I also agree that it's often fathers who are the ones who teach the kids roughhousing- I have seen many fathers who do it to their sons to toughen or man them up.

The school I worked at allowed no play fighting and I fully supported the reasons behind it.

Children need plenty of opportunity to work off their physical energies without resorting to "play" fighting.

I don;t ever use the phrase 'boys will be boys' but I have two boys, and they will NOT bloody leave each other alone, they drive me mad.
Constantly wrestling each other to the ground, which even if they're in their own words 'only playing' usually ends up with one of them in tears.
Don't know if it's a boy thing or not, but it drives me mad!

I have three boys, 6 nephews and only one niece. In my experience boys do play more physically and more boisterously (as a general rule) than girls but they are not necessarily more aggressive. Nor are they more naughty or more spiteful.

I have a best friend with four boys, each with 4-5 years between them. My sister has 3 boys, with 5-6 years between each.

Friend expects her boys to be helpful and kind and to talk things through with each other. My sister says "oh boys will be boys" and "this is how boys are with each other"; she also expects her sons' female cousins to defer to her boys in any argument.

No prizes for guessing which sibling set spends time talking things through and negotiates, and which pummels each other into the ground to get the upper hand.

OK, different set of genes, but also vastly different expectations.

Yep, well said Jamdonut and Hello. I think the parents should take a lot of the responsibility for children behaving this way.

From what I've seen and heard, girls may do more sitting and playing quietly, and boys may do more running around (generalisations, I know) but there is no excuse for aggression or spitefulness from any child.

I don't know anybody that says "boys will be boys" to facilitate bad behaviour.

I do however know people who say it and have boys who like to do the bear cub thing.

The sad thing is a lot of parents who don't gave boys think a bit of harmless bear cub playing is akin to grievous bodily harm and don't realise it's mostly harmless,much needed and not that much of an issue in the right place.

" in the right place "
That's the key point. Nothing wrong with a bit of rough and tumble as long as it's in the right place. Not when all parties aren't in agreement, not when it's causing damage somewhere that's being visited and not when it's causing a nuisance. Otherwise -fine. It's likely to be fun regardless of participants being male or female.

I think there is a discrepancy between "in the right place though" and opinions differ.

This girls work things through thing is bollocks. I do playground duty too and by and large most problems are girl related with tell telling,whispering,leaving out,looks etc far more of a problem.I have observed groups of boys play acting battles and fighting beautifully with never a hand laid on each other.The sneaky quiet unkindness that goes on may not be in your face but it is far more unpleasant imvho.