"Boys will be boys"

[Amber76]

to think that the above is not an excuse for rough behaviour?

I have a 4 year old girl and an 18 month old boy. So far I've noticed little difference in the way they are and how they play. They've never wrestled each other but maybe he's a bit young. But I have never seen my girl try to wrestle another child - its just not something that has come up so far.

But we have a friend who has two young boys who are constantly play fighting and it can get very rough (things being knocked over in the house, my kids getting bumped into, etc.). They are constantly trying to kick or hit each other. My friend explains the very boisterous behaviour by just saying that all boys are like that. I don't agree and think it is a lazy excuse for bad behaviour. But I've also heard the same line trotted out at play groups and at birthday parties in relation to boys play fighting and trying to "kill" each other.

I am pregnant again and suspect it is a boy so am I going to have two little boys constantly wrestling each other for the next few years? Is this inevitable?!

Never ever try to do a totally inside play date Data that way madness lies.

I can't stand Biddulph books- as PP siad this "testosterone surge" seems to be his claim alone. I find him very conservative, old fashioned, christian, "men should be head of the household" and seems to think that if women stuck to traditional roles and didn't work all would be well with children.

My grandsons are 5 and 8. They do play fight/wrestle at home but not with other children. They are devoted to one another and support each other if necessary. Growing up my ds was more gentle than dd when playing.

It's rubbish. If you look at the science there is something like .05% (probably not precise but around that) variation between male and female brains. The changes that develop between the two later on are now considered to be due to culture and socialisation.

bigbluestars, totally agree about Biddulph. I think the 'testosterone surge' theory has been debunked now.

This kind of thinking is rife. I work with 0-4 year olds and their parents and I hear this stereotyping about boys' behaviour on a daily basis. It's highly damaging to boys as well, these beliefs that boys 'can't listen', won't sit down, are 'lazy' etc. Boys need support to learn listen and play and share and take turns, just like girls do. Writing them off as incapable of these things does them no favours whatsoever. And it drives me extra potty when I hear it coming from Early Years professionals who should know much better!

Boys will be whatever you expect of them. Whether or not they are more inclined to wrestle isnt the point. The point is are the parents inclined to restrict it in any way, or excuse it in every way. Even if you think all boys can and should wrestle, rules can be imposed: no kicking, no hitting with toy swords etc, no wrestling in the living room. And clear consequences of losing any toys involved, being sent out of doors if they are going to act fight like cats and dogs. Etc.

I think boys do tend to fight, and there is an expectation that the boy will "stick up for himself" in the playground by winning fights. I don't agree with gender stereotyping, but at the same time, boys do get attacked physically more than girls.

Having said this, I turn the electricity off any time any of mine decide to fight! It's amazing how fast they stop when they realise they will lose their privileges if they fight ;)

I have 2 boys. When ds1 turned 3 he seemed to get a burst of testosterone or something and started getting aggressive in his play.

I saw the same thing in friends boys of the same age. Whereas I was absolutely horrified by the behaviour and clamped down hard on my ds I found other parents let their children behave this way and dismissed it as "boys will be boys". This really gets on my nerves.

IME there is a lot of wrestling and rough play with my boys which I have never encouraged but I always stop it and refuse to let it go just because they are boys. They will be men one day and so I feel it's important they learn that hurting others is wrong!

They do get over excited and go A bit wild but I find that they need an outlet for their energy so we spend a lot if time outdoors.

lotta and bigblue I gree on the Biddulph even though I mentioned IT - the needing to play fight to learn not to hurt was what I took from it.

I lost a long reply with a link to a properly researched article on exercise helping boys AND girls learn I will find and post.

Sorry typos as iphone keeps losing posts and I'm posting before spellchecking!

My brothers are 4.5 years apart in age and would "rough house" all the time when we were growing up. Sometimes my Dad would join in - till he got too old. My sisters and I never joined in. When they did it they were always laughing and having a great time.

They still do it from time to time and they're in their late 20s and early 30s.

I also think most boys do it and as long as no one gets hurt I don't see an issue with it.

Thanks so much for all the interesting responses.

As my kids get older it will be interesting to see how this pans out. My dc are fairly gentle and placid (so far) so I do think there is a certain amount of genetics at play in terms of the way they are as little people.

here is a good blog about why the testosterone surge thing is a myth

sarahockwell-smith.com/2014/06/09/why-the-huge-testosterone-surge-in-young-boys-is-a-myth-and-what-really-causes-their-behaviour-to-change/

Oh thsibis the article I was thinking of - worth a read even for the pithy comments of the author, but interesting on a study of how much exercise helps pupils with and without ADHD m.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/exercise-seems-to-be-beneficial-to-children/380844/

Isn't the real issue not whether boys or girls fight, whether it's typical or acceptable, but about boundaries and respect?
If two children are happy rolling about pretending to fight and both having fun that's fine. If one doesn't want to do it then it isn't fine.
The parenting comes in to teach boundaries and respect. Right from the start.

My two boys (5 and 3) wrestle and playfight a lot. Sometimes it ends in tears but generally it is good natured and they both enjoy it, which is why I allow it to continue. I don't see this as bad/lazy parenting, but I would consider it bad parenting to not teach them boundaries with this sort of play.

They don't tend to wrestle other children however, and they are both very gentle with younger children. I would immediately intervene if either of them started any kind of rough play with a child that clearly wasn't up for it, but IME lots of little boys, and some although fewer little girls, enjoy this sort of physical play.

They are both well able to sit and do drawing/craft activities/reading/playing with Lego etc, the wrestling is just one aspect of play that they enjoy.

My DS's sort of "prance about" doing pretend wrestling moves or Star Wars type battles, but don't actually fight, it's more choreographed IYSWIM. There is quite a big age gap so I think DS1 is wary of hurting DS2. DS1 used to play fight a bit with his friends, DS2 doesn't; I do think boys are more inclined to physical play, but I agree that that only works if everyone in the game is happy with rough play.

Slightly off topic, but along with the innate "boy behaviour" theme, I was once summoned to DS1's nursery, when he was 3, as he had been making all the Duplo into guns and pretending to shoot people. . I have NO idea where that came from, we never had any gun toys at home and he hadn't seen any films/ TV with guns in at that age. I wondered if he was copying another child, perhaps one with older siblings, but apparently he was the instigator. (He is the most chilled out 15 year old now, so the Nusery's concerns about his latent sociopathy were unfounded, fortunately )

I really don't like play fighting and would always stop it. Consequently my 4 year old son does not like this kind of play at the nursery and distances himself with the boys (saying they push too much) and plays with the girls. He has two sisters who are 12 and 20. In my experience, it is very much more in boys than girls. When I pick him up from nursery the boys seem to be rolling around on the carpet like little bear cubs or touching each other in some way. I'm hoping I haven't scarred him for life though and he warms to the other boys when he starts school!

Yes this is a banal phrase! Of course there re general typical differences in a sample of humans but we as mothers usually have a very small sample. Hence paying attention to what is in front of you is simplest. As with any behaviour we need to decide whether we ought to step in as parents and redirect certain energies - sometimes firmly halt some behaviours of course. when my 8month old experimentally bit me when feeding I screamed - he looked at me in surprise and I gave him a lecture to the effect that if he did that again no more mummy... Thoughtfully he latched on and never repeated it. As there were three years two months between mine and one of each sex fighting was not an issue. But I was the middle of three close in age and we regularly had real angry fights. I think my other ought to have intervened more but she let us sort it out and it was not that common. My sister was aggressive and I wasn't though and she was bigger than me. No simple answers I'm afraid...

If it's not mutual then its not playfighting surely? From my sample of 1 ds and 1 dd, then you might think that boys are more boisterous and like rough and tumble play more, but of course this doesn't mean all boys are like this. I was talking to our pre-school manager as we were watching my ds engage in mutual rough and tumble play. She said the research suggests that it is a healthy way to play, and the important thing is to teach children how to stop before someone gets hurt - and this is what I try to do. It seems to be in my household that sometimes one of ds or dd gets hurt, but they don't tend to blame the other person they sort of accept it as a potential consequence of wrestling.

Surely there's a massive difference between rough-and-tumble / play fighting and "They are constantly trying to kick or hit each other" from the OP.

DD & her friends will still rough and tumble if they're in the mood and they're 12 - maybe not as much as they used to, but I'm not in the least surprised to hear shrieks and howls of laughter and find pillows & cushions being hurled all over her bedroom. In the same way hugs very often turn into judo throws & tickle fights. To me that's not at all the same as kicking and hitting!

I do also notice quite a bit boy/girl play fighting between friends which I presume is actually their way of expressing affection

Frankly, I think 'boys will be boys' is not just sexist, but lazy parenting. Either the behaviour is acceptable, in which case no excuse is needed, or it isn't, in which case the participants need to learn more civilised behaviour, regardless of their sex.

Haven't read the thread all the way through, but I think there is a difference between having two boys, and having a boy as a younger sibling to a girl. All the second-born-to-older-sister boys I know are gentler, more placid souls than those boys in families where there are only boys.

Of my kids my 2nd DD is definitely the most high energy and physical by a long way and always has been. Her young brother (they are 11 and 8) and her love to play fight and just be generally very physical a lot. They are always laughing and joking and crashing around the house. Of all my kids DD2 was the only one who had problems getting physical when she was angry at school, although that is over now, it was a couple of years ago. My son definitely has the stereotype interests of a boy and in fact today was trying to convince us all that Minecraft is for boys even though we know two girls who are fanatical about Minecraft.

Then again, he loves to write and anything else to do with literacy and supposedly that is usually a strength of girls.

It was quite a challenge for me when my DD was the one in physical fights, I was surprised how horrified I was - even though she was always the most likely candidate as she is a very physical person and always has been. She is also high energy and a lot of fun, all traits that seem to be more acceptable in boys.

I have 2 boys who enjoy rough and tumble, role play as knights / jedis / superheroes and regularly play a game called wrestle club with their dad. It has very strict, hilarious and constantly evolving rules, such as 'No drubbing' and 'no licking' but the main one is 'when someone says stop, stop.' If I had 2 girls, I'm sure they would choose different games, and I have no idea how much of that is nature and how much nurture.

However, I would never use the fact that they are boys to excuse bad or aggressive behaviour towards others - that's just lazy.